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[Shiranui117]

Jesus Himslef said:

"By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me." John 5:30

An excellent description of all three Persons of the Trinity sharing the same Divine Will--and further proof that the three Persons are not divided, but are rather One God, and undivided.

"But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father." Mattew 24:36

InChrist explained this well. Before the Resurrection, Jesus willingly limited Himself--He hid His glory and confined Himself almost fully to the limits of His humanity, in order that He may share with us in our human experience. This includes confining Himself primarily to His human knowledge.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Before the Resurrection, Jesus willingly limited Himself--He hid His glory and confined Himself almost fully to the limits of His humanity, in order that He may share with us in our human experience. This includes confining Himself primarily to His human knowledge.

Before the resurrection, He did many miracles, and showed great divine power and knowledge, so I am not sure why you say this. I also don't see why would Jesus say "I cannot do anything by Myself" if He was God who can do everything alone. If you say it was due to humility, What is the point of this humility? God does not show this type of humility in Hebrew Scriptures, so, why would He does in New Testament? If you say, it was because God turned to human, He was not as powerful anymore, then that seems contradictory with God who says "I do not change"

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Another possibiity is that the Qu'ran is misinterpreted and even worse misunderstood.

Of course. I would say, Quran is among the Books that is mostly misinterpreted than any other Book. There are many sects of Islam, each interprete Quran differently. Obviously not all of them can be true.

 

[Shiranui117]

Before the resurrection, He did many miracles, and showed great divine power and knowledge, so I am not sure why you say this.

So did the prophets of the Old Testament, even though they were mere men.

I also don't see why would Jesus say "I cannot do anything by Myself" if He was God who can do everything alone.

Because the Father is the source of the Trinity. Jesus Christ (God the Son) is begotten from the Father, and a true Father-Son relationship exists between those two Persons. This is why the Father is greater, by virtue of their relationship--not by virtue of their Divinity, their glory or their power. When the Trinity acts, all three Persons act. This is why the Son cannot do anything by Himself--because the other two Persons are always also participating in that action.

If you say it was due to humility, What is the point of this humility?

Because God loves us so much, that He is willing to become one of us, experience everything we do, take that all on, redeem every aspect of our human existence, and open up the opportunity for us to share in His Life.

This is the thing that the Muslims have never been able to comprehend: The idea that God would love us so much, as to wish to humble Himself, become one of us, lay aside His glory, struggle alongside us, suffer for us and die for us in order to save us. God loved the world so much, that He gave His Only-Begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him might not perish but have everlasting life. God has always been humble; He is not proud. His becoming man and dying a shameful, gruesome death on a cross, being betrayed and forsaken by His disciples, as well as spat upon and flogged and beaten by the Jews and Romans alike is proof enough of that. But God had to first be stern with humanity before He could show them His humility, and just how far He is willing to go in order to save us all.

God does not show this type of humility in Hebrew Scriptures, so, why would He does in New Testament?

Because the Old Testament was God pulling strings and setting the stage for the New Testament. God was doing what He could to teach the people of Israel right from wrong, giving them as much revelation, blessing and punishment as necessary in order to prepare them to receive the Messiah and be lights to the world. It is like parents being much sterner with young children, but as the children grow older, more experienced and more disciplined, the parents can take a more relaxed approach. God was being sterner with Israel while the nation was still young and ignorant, but when they stopped running around with scissors and putting their hands on hot stoves (AKA practicing idolatry and starting to actually care a little bit about the laws that God gave), it was time for the promised Messiah to come--Who would in fact be God's only-begotten Son, our Lord, God and Savior Jesus Christ.

If you say, it was because God turned to human, He was not as powerful anymore, then that seems contradictory with God who says "I do not change"

He didn't become less powerful. It's more akin to a champion wrestler allowing himself to be pinned by a five-year-old. Does the wrestler become weaker in the course of fighting the child? No, of course not. He simply limits his strength, only using a certain amount of what he is really capable of, in order to let the child win. It is the same with Jesus becoming human--He limited His power and His wisdom and His glory, humbling Himself in order to live among us as one of us, in order to save us.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

So did the prophets of the Old Testament, even though they were mere men.

Because the Father is the source of the Trinity. Jesus Christ (God the Son) is begotten from the Father, and a true Father-Son relationship exists between those two Persons. This is why the Father is greater, by virtue of their relationship--not by virtue of their Divinity, their glory or their power. When the Trinity acts, all three Persons act. This is why the Son cannot do anything by Himself--because the other two Persons are always also participating in that action.

Because God loves us so much, that He is willing to become one of us, experience everything we do, take that all on, redeem every aspect of our human existence, and open up the opportunity for us to share in His Life.

This is the thing that the Muslims have never been able to comprehend: The idea that God would love us so much, as to wish to humble Himself, become one of us, lay aside His glory, struggle alongside us, suffer for us and die for us in order to save us. God loved the world so much, that He gave His Only-Begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him might not perish but have everlasting life. God has always been humble; He is not proud. His becoming man and dying a shameful, gruesome death on a cross, being betrayed and forsaken by His disciples, as well as spat upon and flogged and beaten by the Jews and Romans alike is proof enough of that. But God had to first be stern with humanity before He could show them His humility, and just how far He is willing to go in order to save us all.

Because the Old Testament was God pulling strings and setting the stage for the New Testament. God was doing what He could to teach the people of Israel right from wrong, giving them as much revelation, blessing and punishment as necessary in order to prepare them to receive the Messiah and be lights to the world. It is like parents being much sterner with young children, but as the children grow older, more experienced and more disciplined, the parents can take a more relaxed approach. God was being sterner with Israel while the nation was still young and ignorant, but when they stopped running around with scissors and putting their hands on hot stoves (AKA practicing idolatry and starting to actually care a little bit about the laws that God gave), it was time for the promised Messiah to come--Who would in fact be God's only-begotten Son, our Lord, God and Savior Jesus Christ.


He didn't become less powerful. It's more akin to a champion wrestler allowing himself to be pinned by a five-year-old. Does the wrestler become weaker in the course of fighting the child? No, of course not. He simply limits his strength, only using a certain amount of what he is really capable of, in order to let the child win. It is the same with Jesus becoming human--He limited His power and His wisdom and His glory, humbling Himself in order to live among us as one of us, in order to save us.

The doctorine of Trinity did not exist in early Christianity. The early Christians had a better understanding of the relation between The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

For example they explained that relationship by saying Jesus is like a spotless Mirror that shows the image of God:

As Clement of Rome (95AD) said: "Through Jesus we see, like in a mirror, the spotless and excellent face of God"
In another words, the analogy can be explained with the Sun, and Mirror. The Sun being God, and Mirror being Jesus. When we look at this Mirror we see the Light and Image of the Sun. Then we can say I see the Sun in the Mirror (The Father is in the Son). The Mirror is reflecting the same Rays that exist at the Sun, 'the Son is in the Father' And If you say, this is Mirror and not the Sun, it is True. There is only One God, the Father, and the Son is His Prophet, the Son of Man. The Sun itself is infinitely greater than the image in Mirror, 'The Father is greater than I', and the Light that is reflect through the Mirror shows exactly the Light of the Sun and its image, and not its own light, 'the Son says and does exactly as the Father asks Him'. These analogies can reconcile various verses of Bible which appear to be contradictory, while the idea of Trinity cannot reconcile, and at the end it has to say, our logic cannot understand God, that's why it doesn't make sense.

 

[Shiranui117]

The doctorine of Trinity did not exist in early Christianity. The early Christians had a better understanding of the relation between The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

For example they explained that relationship by saying Jesus is like a spotless Mirror that shows the image of God:

As Clement of Rome (95AD) said: "Through Jesus we see, like in a mirror, the spotless and excellent face of God"

Work, chapter, verse and link, please. I won't read a word beyond this point until you properly cite and source your references, nor will I take it seriously.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Work, chapter, verse and link, please. I won't read a word beyond this point until you properly cite and source your references, nor will I take it seriously.

The document called 1 Clement, a letter from the Roman congregation to that at Corinth uses the language of the biblical book of Hebrews to portray Jesus as the reflection of God's splendor, the "mirror" of "God's... transcendent face" (1 Clement 36) and the "scepter of God's majesty" (1 Clement 16.2). A somewhat later writing from Rome, The Shepherd of Hermas, combines the idea of "the holy pre-existent Spirit which created the whole creation" (Similitudes 5.6) with the picture of Jesus as the suffering and exalted servant.
http://www.theologywebsite.com/history/christologies.shtml




"1Clem 35:11
Now understand ye these things, ye that forget God, lest at any
time He seize you as a lion, and there be none to deliver.

1Clem 35:12
The sacrifice of praise shall glorify Me, and there is the way
wherein I will show him the salvation of God.

1Clem 36:1
This is the way, dearly beloved, wherein we found our salvation,
even Jesus Christ the High priest of our offerings, the Guardian and
Helper of our weakness.

1Clem 36:2
Through Him let us look steadfastly unto the heights of the heavens;
through Him we behold as in a mirror His faultless and most excellent
visage; through Him the eyes of our hearts were opened; through Him
our foolish and darkened mind springeth up unto the light; through
Him the Master willed that we should taste of the immortal knowledge
Who being the brightness of His majesty is so much greater than
angels, as He hath inherited a more excellent name."
First Clement: Clement of Rome



Also:

the great theologian Origen (185-254 C.E.), citing the Book of Wisdom, called Christ 'the spotless mirror' of God's workings (Origen, On First Principles 26).
http://www.ts.mu.edu/readers/content/pdf/60/60.4/60.4.5.pdf


Also:

"and we all, with unvailed face, the glory of the Lord beholding in a mirror, to the same image are being transformed, from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord." 2 cori 3-18

Also:

"For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known." 1 Cor. 13:22

So, Jesus who was like a Mirror, showing the image of God, but as Paul alluded, at the end we see God face to face. This is similar to what Augustine said.

The point from all the above is, the early Christians explained the relation between The Father and Jesus, as a Light of Wisdom and Knowledge that is reflected in a Mirror (The Christ).

 

[sojourner]

Funny that a lot of Origen's teachings were anathema, and he was never canonized. Sounds like a rather questionable "authority" to me...

 

[post-pone]

Christians did not Get their faith from the Bible. The Christian Bible did not exist for at least three hundred years After the Death Of Jesus.

Your little script is a nonsense.

This exactly prove corruption

As we know there is miracle in bible ( normal person can not know these
Miracles..

What about sign of judgment day?!

Pastors are talking about sign of judgement day which mentiioned
In bible

As we know no one know anything about judgement day except
Creator which prove jesus is prophet

He came to bring creator massage



Miracles are not human speech

Contradiction prove it was corrupted

Some time it says wine allowed other it is forbidden

Here they forget to omit this following line

Which say jesus brought bible ~

While writer say : they wrote it / itt is their speech

English Standard Version
and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.”

Name prophet in Bible ~

Just go to youtube. And write


BREAKING NEWS Prophet Muhammad's Name Found in the Bible

 

[post-pone]

Nope, the basis of our faith is the person, life, teachings, death and Resurrection of Jesus Christ.

If the Qur'an is the infallible and exact word of God, then why does it so terribly get wrong what the doctrine of the Trinity actually states? Did God get Christian belief wrong?

From where you learn about jesus life speech

Isn't from bible ~

Luke 13:31 jesus confirm he is prophet ~

By the way islam Laws against Doctrine


There shall be no compulsion in [acceptance of] the religion. The right course has become clear from the wrong. So whoever disbelieves in Taghut and believes in Allah has grasped the most trustworthy handhold with no break in it. And Allah is Hearing and Knowing.