"Only God can judge me!" Religious debates rerun

[Wandering Monk]

Hard to separate law and religion. People's ethics frequently have a religious core. Ethics find their way into law.

 

[sun rise]

It's worth noting that the "neutral" Secularism has begun banning some religious clothing.

And not in other secular societies. You confuse culture and secular principles.

In the USA, if someone wants to wear a burka, she's free to do so unless she wants a driver's license where an image of the face is mandatory. The principle is freedom of choice in a wide range of clothing (public nudity outside of nude beaches/resorts is of course an exception to that freedom).

 

[Piculet]

Veiling the face is not a religious requirement. They are often worn out of compulsion of the husband or family

Rather than debate that point, though I might, I'll say that in Quebec even hijabs are forbidden in many state jobs

 

[Piculet]

I watched the video and I think you misunderstood it entirely. It is saying that Muslims need to enjoin the good and forbid evil and that "secular Muslims" don't do this.

 

[Piculet]

And not in other secular societies.

Good for them not doing that crime (according to you), do they want a gold star for being logical?

 

[Piculet]

Just finished. It struck me as an extremely well done appeal to orthodoxy.

It is probably a video which target audience are Muslims. So I'm guessing it isn't "an appeal to orthodoxy" so much as an appeal to non-practicing Muslims to stop talking nonsense about Islam.

 

[Piculet]

Again, secularism is IMO very positive and trumps some religious ideas.
IF God created "Religions" THEN I believe the same God created "Secularism" as a religious eye-opener.

Then you must consider pedophiles and Parkinson's disease a similar religious eye-opener.

 

[sun rise]

Rather than debate that point, though I might, I'll say that in Quebec even hijabs are forbidden in many state jobs

Don't extrapolate France and Quebec to include the entire western world.

Rather look at more situations such as this one: Medical Student Creates First Disposable Hijab - Hospital Now Offers Them To Muslim Staff

I watched the video and I think you misunderstood it entirely. It is saying that Muslims need to enjoin the good and forbid evil and that "secular Muslims" don't do this.

Everyone has their own view of what promoting what is good and opposing what is evil. Muslims disagree and what Islam teaches as do all religious and secular people.

The question is force - does any one group have the right to force others to confirm to that groups ideas of good and evil? A secular society allows people to live their lives according to what they consider good vs evil and only imposes choice in very limited situations.

Good for them not doing that crime (according to you), do they want a gold star for being logical?

I did not call it a 'crime' - don't put words in my mouth. Saying the US, UK, Germany or whatever nations does things better than others such as France does not merit a sarcastic crack. And doing better does not of course mean doing it right.

 

[Quintessence]

Are those oak trees only religious, though? Did the state erect them for religious purposes? Is anyone suggesting (for example) you can't pray on public land, or is it more tied up to how the state is using it's land and resources (provided via public taxation)?

This is interesting and I want to follow up on it because it seems the answer to the question "is some such symbol only religious" doesn't have any clear answer. That's because something is "religious" or "only religious" or "sometimes religious" when we say it is because... reasons. The term is a construct, culturally determined by whatever the norms of society are. For some, they don't care whether or not something was or wasn't put up for "religious purposes" either. That too, is constructed. So how do we sort all this out? I don't have any answers, really.

 

[ChristineM]

Rather than debate that point, though I might, I'll say that in Quebec even hijabs are forbidden in many state jobs

So, does that make them religious clothing? Please show me where in the Qur'an that it insists that hijabs are worn by women as religious clothing

As far as i understand it it, the Qur'an says women should dress modestly, it does not dictate how

 

[Piculet]

Music has the ability to touch the soul, so telling others that music is haram cannot be what Allah has meant IMO.

"touch the soul"? You realize humans made up that expression? Why do you always want Allah to agree with you if you don't believe in Him?

Evidence of prohibition in the Qur’aan and Sunnah:

Allaah says in Soorat Luqmaan (interpretation of the meaning):

“And of mankind is he who purchases idle talks (i.e. music, singing) to mislead (men) from the path of Allaah…” [Luqmaan 31:6]
(...)
Ibn al-Qayyim (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: The interpretation of the Sahaabah and Taabi’in, that ‘idle talk’ refers to singing, is sufficient. This was reported with saheeh isnaads from Ibn ‘Abbaas and Ibn Mas’ood. Abu’l-Sahbaa’ said: I asked Ibn Mas’ood about the aayah (interpretation of the meaning), ‘“And of mankind is he who purchases idle talks’ [Luqmaan 31:6]. He said: By Allaah, besides Whom there is no other god, this means singing – and he repeated it three times. It was also reported with a saheeh isnaad from Ibn ‘Umar (may Allaah be pleased with them both) that this means singing. There is no contradiction between the interpretation of “idle talk” as meaning singing and the interpretation of it as meaning stories of the Persians and their kings, and the kings of the Romans, and so on, such as al-Nadr ibn al-Haarith used to tell to the people of Makkah to distract them from the Qur’aan. Both of them are idle talk. Hence Ibn ‘Abbaas said: “Idle talk” is falsehood and singing.
(...)
Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“Do you then wonder at this recitation (the Qur’aan)?

And you laugh at it and weep not,

Wasting your (precious) lifetime in pastime and amusements (singing)”

[al-Najm 53:59-61]

‘Ikrimah (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: it was narrated from Ibn ‘Abbaas that al-sumood [verbal noun from saamidoon, translated here as “Wasting your (precious) lifetime in pastime and amusements (singing)”] means “singing”, in the dialect of Himyar; it might be said “Ismidi lanaa” [‘sing for us’ – from the same root as saamidoon/sumood] meaning “ghaniy” [sing]. And he said (may Allaah have mercy on him): When they [the kuffaar] heard the Qur’aan, they would sing, then this aayah was revealed.
(...)
The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said:

“Among my ummah there will certainly be people who permit zinaa, silk, alcohol and musical instruments…” (Narrated by al-Bukhaari ta’leeqan, no. 5590; narrated as mawsool by al-Tabaraani and al-Bayhaqi. See al-Silsilah al-Saheehah by al-Albaani, 91).
(...)
It was narrated that Naafi’ (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: Ibn ‘Umar heard a woodwind instrument, and he put his fingers in his ears and kept away from that path. He said to me, O Naafi’, can you hear anything? I said, No. So he took his fingers away from his ears and said: I was with the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and he heard something like this, and he did the same thing. (Saheeh Abi Dawood).
Ruling on music, singing and dancing - Islam Question & Answer

 

[Piculet]

So, does that make them religious clothing? Please show me where in the Qur'an that it insists that hijabs are worn by women as religious clothing

As far as i understand it it, the Qur'an says women should dress modestly, it does not dictate how

If you're unsure about the meaning in the Qur'an, you can look for the opinions of the scholars and the Hadiths. But the main problem for you is that you do not believe so all the rest is not necessary for you to debate about.

 

[ChristineM]

If you're unsure about the meaning in the Qur'an, you can look for the opinions of the scholars and the Hadiths. But the main problem for you is that you do not believe so all the rest is not necessary for you to debate about.

I can read, you obviously cannot give an answer that suites your claim. Please show me where the Qur'an states women should wear a hijab. If you can't then i will understand, its happened before and i am sure it will happen again

 

[Piculet]

Everyone has their own view of what promoting what is good and opposing what is evil. Muslims disagree and what Islam teaches as do all religious and secular people.

The question is force - does any one group have the right to force others to confirm to that groups ideas of good and evil? A secular society allows people to live their lives according to what they consider good vs evil and only imposes choice in very limited situations.

This is exactly the kind of trash the video responded to. In case you didn't watch, do. Maybe it will clear your thoughts.

 

[stvdv]

Then you must consider pedophiles and Parkinson's disease a similar religious eye-opener.

I don't see the link between "secular" and "pedophiles" in the context to which I replied to the OP

 

[Piculet]

I can read, you obviously cannot give an answer that suites your claim. Please show me where the Qur'an states women should wear a hijab. If you can't then i will understand, its happened before and i am sure it will happen again

I do know the verses of the hijab, but that's not your issue. You just want to divide, divide and divide. I'm a Muslim.

 

[Piculet]

I don't see the link between "secular" and "pedophiles" in the context to which I replied to the OP

Oh well, better luck next time.

 

[stvdv]

If you're unsure about the meaning in the Qur'an, you can look for the opinions of the scholars and the Hadiths.

Exactly...opinions of the Islamic scholars. One should never forget that.

 

[stvdv]

But the main problem for you is that you do not believe

Your main problem is stating your opinion as a fact on RF, it's against RF Rules, hence "it's your main problem". Should not be done on RF
You even commit Ad hominem attack when stating your opinion as fact about somebody personally.

 

[stvdv]

But the main problem for you is that you do not believe so all the rest is not necessary for you to debate about.

You claim that debates should never be about "something you do not believe in". That is new to me.