Only Jesus adherents will attain salvation.

[lewisnotmiller]

We are told sometimes, that people who refused to accept Jesus, will somehow get a "second chance"at judgement. This seems highly unlikely, because of course that will "make"people "convert". It is a silly concept, aside from those who literally never got the oppurtunity. Scripture seems to back this, as well.



This isnt to say there cant be a second chance, but that is contextual

I'm fine if there is no second chance. I'm not asking for one.

 

[The Holy Bottom Burp]

We believe that, at death, the spirit leaves the body but does not cease to be a cognizant entity. It continues to exist, to be self-aware, and to be able to learn, grow, and make decisions -- all the way up until the Final Judgment, which may be thousands and thousands of years from now. We are all products of our cultures. Billions lived and died without ever having had the opportunity to hear the gospel of Jesus Christ. For reasons known only to God, some rejected His teachings during their lifetimes on earth, but may see things quite differently once their bodies are dead and in the ground, and they are existing in a spirit state. It's not over till it's over -- not for anybody.

I don't know if my answer has helped or just further confused you, but feel free to tell me if I need to clarify or expound upon anything. (And thank you for asking what we Mormons believe instead of just telling us what we believe. I appreciate that.)

Now that seems so much more reasonable than the traditional Christian idea of "eternal conscious torment" for getting it "wrong" in life, so thanks for the clarification, there is hope for a grizzled old atheist like me! I am obviously aware the prospect of survival beyond death is what attracts many people to religion, but it is not something that vexes me these days, I am not afraid of death. After all, I "die" every day when I sleep, so being dead wont be a new "experience", I just wont be waking up!
You mention a Final Judgement, so does that mean eventual annihilation of those who reject the gospel, or does that mean hell? You say that a few will spend time in hell?

 

[Kemosloby]

Jesus could save whoever he wants, you just don't know. "Those who aren't against us are for us" and "Forgive them they know not what they do" is a very broad brush. Since there is no legal requirement for God to do anything, it basically comes down to whatever God and the Son of God want to do.

 

[Grandliseur]

We are told sometimes, that people who refused to accept Jesus, will somehow get a "second chance"at judgement. This seems highly unlikely, because of course that will "make"people "convert". It is a silly concept, aside from those who literally never got the oppurtunity. Scripture seems to back this, as well.

This isnt to say there cant be a second chance, but that is contextual

Judgment isn't as set in cement as some think; however, there is what is unknown, i.e. the righteous who do not know about God and Christ will be given a chance to get to know and then adjust; and there is what is known, i.e. those who obey Christ have so to say 'got a ticket to ride.'

As scripture says, Christians judge those within the congregation, and God judges those without. Also, Romans clearly tells us together with Matt 16:27, that people shall be judged by their works and consciences.

We can rarely claim that so and so person will be judged with damnation; naturally, some seem destined for this; still, it is up to Christ to pronounce said judgment, not us. It should be fairly obvious why we all have to be saved by grace; though, works of faith are needed by the faithful. As John said in his letters, none may say they have no sin; yet, none may practice serious sin knowingly and avoid damnation.

 

[Katzpur]

Now that seems so much more reasonable than the traditional Christian idea of "eternal conscious torment" for getting it "wrong" in life, so thanks for the clarification, there is hope for a grizzled old atheist like me!

Hey, you're talking to someone nearly 20 years your senior, so watch it with those adjectives "grizzled" and "old."

I am obviously aware the prospect of survival beyond death is what attracts many people to religion, but it is not something that vexes me these days, I am not afraid of death. After all, I "die" every day when I sleep, so being dead wont be a new "experience", I just wont be waking up!

I have thought long and hard about the concept of non-existence after death. To be honest, I don't really like the idea, but I'm certainly not afraid of it. If it turns out there is no afterlife, I'll never know it. (And I do love to sleep.)

You mention a Final Judgement, so does that mean eventual annihilation of those who reject the gospel, or does that mean hell? You say that a few will spend time in hell?

For us, Hell is the state of mind a non-believer (i.e. that person's spirit) finds himself in during the period between death and the resurrection. He will realize that "Uh oh... I'm not just asleep like I thought I'd be. I've woken up, and now I've got to come to terms with facing what I deserve for all the wrongs I did while I was on earth." It's important to understand a few points about our theology in order to make sense of what comes next. (1) Nobody has gone to Heaven or Hell at this point. The spirits of everyone who has ever lived are just in an intermediate state of existence, awaiting the resurrection of their bodies. We refer to this as the "Spirit World." (2) For many, this state can be described as "hell." It's not a lake of fire or some other physical torture but it will be hell nonetheless. (3) Just as this intermediate state is "hell" for some, it's "paradise" for those who have accepted the gospel of Jesus Christ, repented of their sins, and acknowledged that through Him those sins are to be forgiven. (3) Jesus is not present because, unlike the rest of us, He is already in Heaven. (4) All of the spirits awaiting the Final Judgment are able to interact with each other, and those in a state of hell can still change at this point. They can learn about their Savior from those who have already accepted Him, and choose to believe in Him, even though they didn't while on earth. When they do (when they realize that Jesus Christ was who He claimed to be and can do for them what He said He could), they are released from hell. From then on, they too are in a state of paradise.

We believe that when Jesus Christ returns to earth, all who have accepted His atoning sacrifice on their behalf will receive a glorified, resurrected body and be welcomed into Heaven. Those who have not will be unable to be the beneficiaries of the grace Jesus offered them when He paid for their sins and died for them. Jesus' reign on earth will last 1000 years. During that thousand years, those who have not accepted Him will remain in a state of hell. During this time, they will suffer the punishment for the wrongs they did here on earth. Again, this punishment will not be of a physical nature, because these individuals no longer have a physical body. They will, however, truly suffer. Over time, the suffering will increase with the knowledge that it could have been avoided, had they just repented of their sins and accepted Jesus Christ. At the end of the thousand years, their suffering will end. They will have paid the price for their sins, and God will forgive them. Then, they too will enter Heaven (but it will be in the Telestial Kingdom, the lowest of the three degrees of glory). Still, it will be Heaven, not Hell.

To answer your actual question (sorry it took so long)... The only ones who will not ultimately end up in Heaven are the ones who, in the face of irrefutable evidence that God exists and that Jesus Christ is His Son and our Savior, deny these things. It's as if they were standing in the middle of a desert in the scorching sun and insist that it is raining. They will want no part of God or His Heaven and choose not to be a part of it. They will not be annihilated, but will forever be separated from God and any degree of glory that might have been theirs. They will live throughout eternity with Satan in what we call "Outer Darkness." We believe that only a very, very infinitesimal number of souls will choose this fate.

 

[Serpent Child]

Many are still not sure if Rabbi Jesus even ever existed. The Goyim's (Non-Jews) original sin was becoming enlightened, gaining knowledge, etc. So we were cursed. The Serpent did this, and the Serpent is an ancient Pagan symbol of wisdom, healing, transformation, godhood, Life, etc.

 

[The Holy Bottom Burp]

Hey, you're talking to someone nearly 20 years your senior, so watch it with those adjectives "grizzled" and "old." .

Now that surprises me, I feel suddenly boyish!

I have thought long and hard about the concept of non-existence after death. To be honest, I don't really like the idea, but I'm certainly not afraid of it. If it turns out there is no afterlife, I'll never know it. (And I do love to sleep.)

Sure, sleep is great, I could never have been a special forces guy living with hours of sleep deprivation, I could fall asleep on a rollercoaster!

For us, Hell is the state of mind a non-believer (i.e. that person's spirit) finds himself in during the period between death and the resurrection. He will realize that "Uh oh... I'm not just asleep like I thought I'd be. I've woken up, and now I've got to come to terms with facing what I deserve for all the wrongs I did while I was on earth." It's important to understand a few points about our theology in order to make sense of what comes next. (1) Nobody has gone to Heaven or Hell at this point. The spirits of everyone who has ever lived are just in an intermediate state of existence, awaiting the resurrection of their bodies. We refer to this as the "Spirit World." (2) For many, this state can be described as "hell." It's not a lake of fire or some other physical torture but it will be hell nonetheless. (3) Just as this intermediate state is "hell" for some, it's "paradise" for those who have accepted the gospel of Jesus Christ, repented of their sins, and acknowledged that through Him those sins are to be forgiven. (3) Jesus is not present because, unlike the rest of us, He is already in Heaven. (4) All of the spirits awaiting the Final Judgment are able to interact with each other, and those in a state of hell can still change at this point. They can learn about their Savior from those who have already accepted Him, and choose to believe in Him, even though they didn't while on earth. When they do (when they realize that Jesus Christ was who He claimed to be and can do for them what He said He could), they are released from hell. From then on, they too are in a state of paradise.

We believe that when Jesus Christ returns to earth, all who have accepted His atoning sacrifice on their behalf will receive a glorified, resurrected body and be welcomed into Heaven. Those who have not will be unable to be the beneficiaries of the grace Jesus offered them when He paid for their sins and died for them. Jesus' reign on earth will last 1000 years. During that thousand years, those who have not accepted Him will remain in a state of hell. During this time, they will suffer the punishment for the wrongs they did here on earth. Again, this punishment will not be of a physical nature, because these individuals no longer have a physical body. They will, however, truly suffer. Over time, the suffering will increase with the knowledge that it could have been avoided, had they just repented of their sins and accepted Jesus Christ. At the end of the thousand years, their suffering will end. They will have paid the price for their sins, and God will forgive them. Then, they too will enter Heaven (but it will be in the Telestial Kingdom, the lowest of the three degrees of glory). Still, it will be Heaven, not Hell.

To answer your actual question (sorry it took so long)... The only ones who will not ultimately end up in Heaven are the ones who, in the face of irrefutable evidence that God exists and that Jesus Christ is His Son and our Savior, deny these things. It's as if they were standing in the middle of a desert in the scorching sun and insist that it is raining. They will want no part of God or His Heaven and choose not to be a part of it. They will not be annihilated, but will forever be separated from God and any degree of glory that might have been theirs. They will live throughout eternity with Satan in what we call "Outer Darkness." We believe that only a very, very infinitesimal number of souls will choose this fate.

Well interesting Katzpur, apart from the hierarchal levels of heaven that could have been written by a Baptist, but of course there are very different theologies at play, your Jesus is not a Baptist Jesus I'm sure you'd agree. I'm not convinced that hell is a coherent concept if I'm honest, one thing we know about the human mind is that it is quite fragile. Subject it to extended trauma, and the chances are it will go wrong - into a state we label "mental illness", we say he has "lost his mind". With the eternal trauma of hell, surely those human minds will go insane, which might lead to a disturbing existence, or might lead to a deliriously happy one - not all people who have lost their minds are unhappy, ergo hell loses it sting, so it is no longer hell. The insane mind might believe it is a child again, running around and having fun, who knows? If you say the deity will intervene to keep the mind teetering on the right side of sanity, just so it can suffer, then that is a pretty monstrous deity I'd say. Whatever, I'm glad there is room for atheists in an LDS heaven, I'd settle for the Telestial variety, I suspect it will be populated by a lot of interesting minds!

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

Hmm. Good thing we don't need salvation.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Only Jesus adherents will attain salvation.

They can keep it.

 

[Katzpur]

I don't think Jesus taught there was a second chance. It's logical, though. If I don't accept an unopened gift from my parent, then even though I don't know what's in the box so I can't benefit nor not benefit from what's in it, I still "lose out" on having it in the first place.

Hi, @Carlita. I'd like to throw an idea out there for you (or anybody else) to consider. I'm especially interested in hearing your thoughts, though, since I more or less understand your background and way of looking at topics like this one. Let's say a person were exposed to the teachings of Jesus Christ at the age of 13, but simply wasn't interested. Now, fast forward ten years, and he is again presented with the idea that Jesus Christ is his Savior. This time, he explores Christianity in greater depth, but still just can't bring himself to buy into it. He's a good person and lives a reasonably good life. At the age of, say, 48, he once again starts to look into Christianity. This time, because many years have gone by and he's had a bunch of experiences that have made him look at things differently than he once did, he finds that he is really ready to become a Christian. He embraces the teachings of Jesus Christ and openly acknowledges that he'd been wrong in the past and wants to move forward in his newfound faith.

So... is he out of luck because, he passed up his "first chance" to accept Jesus Christ at age 13? He even passed up his second chance ten years later? Or maybe he shouldn't have even gotten a second chance. I can't imagine a single human being that I know who would say that we only get one chance to accept Jesus Christ, and that if we don't act on that one opportunity, it's lost forever. We're willing to give people multiple opportunities because we recognize that perspectives change over time. Maybe we, as humans, draw this arbitrary line that well call "death" and claim that that's when the final curtain falls on the opportunities God gives us to accept His Son. But to God, the continuum of our existence is entirely different. We're the same in His eyes before and after death. Why wouldn't He allow someone another chance after death, if He'd willingly allowed that person multiple chances during his life?

We're told to forgive 70 x 7 times. I don't think that means we're supposed to just forgive 490 times. I don't even think it means we're supposed to forgive "a whole lot of times." I think it means that we're not supposed to even keep track of how many times we've forgiven someone. I think that, to God, what matters is what happens in the end. And the end is NOT death.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Hi, @Carlita. I'd like to throw an idea out there for you (or anybody else) to consider. I'm especially interested in hearing your thoughts, though, since I more or less understand your background and way of looking at topics like this one. Let's say a person were exposed to the teachings of Jesus Christ at the age of 13, but simply wasn't interested. Now, fast forward ten years, and he is again presented with the idea that Jesus Christ is his Savior. This time, he explores Christianity in greater depth, but still just can't bring himself to buy into it. He's a good person and lives a reasonably good life. At the age of, say, 48, he once again starts to look into Christianity. This time, because many years have gone by and he's had a bunch of experiences that have made him look at things differently than he once did, he finds that he is really ready to become a Christian. He embraces the teachings of Jesus Christ and openly acknowledges that he'd been wrong in the past and wants to move forward in his newfound faith.

So... is he out of luck because, he passed up his "first chance" to accept Jesus Christ at age 13? He even passed up his second chance ten years later? Or maybe he shouldn't have even gotten a second chance. I can't imagine a single human being that I know who would say that we only get one chance to accept Jesus Christ, and that if we don't act on that one opportunity, it's lost forever. We're willing to give people multiple opportunities because we recognize that perspectives change over time. Maybe we, as humans, draw this arbitrary line that well call "death" and claim that that's when the final curtain falls on the opportunities God gives us to accept His Son. But to God, the continuum of our existence is entirely different. We're the same in His eyes before and after death. Why wouldn't He allow someone another chance after death, if He'd willingly allowed that person multiple chances during his life?

We're told to forgive 70 x 7 times. I don't think that means we're supposed to just forgive 490 times. I don't even think it means we're supposed to forgive "a whole lot of times." I think it means that we're not supposed to even keep track of how many times we've forgiven someone. I think that, to God, what matters is what happens in the end. And the end is NOT death.

Here's the thing.

If god gave the child the box at 13 and he didn't open it, he, by default, lost the benefit that's in the box. If there is a million dollars in the box and he doesn't open it, he lost out. Therefore, he lost his salvation to clear his debt. If he died that same night, he wouldn't just get the million dollars. He had his chance and didn't open the box.

Likewise, ten years later, he is presented with the same box. He looks at it, shakes it, reads about it, but doesn't open it. Since he doesn't open it even though he has the temptation to because of a gut feeling, he still loses out. It's the laws of logic. If you don't open the box, you won't know what's inside. If the million dollars would clear his debt, he wouldn't get it without opening the box. That was his second change to open the box but unless he opens it, he only has one chance to clear his debt.

At age 48 he finally says, okay. Let me open it. He opens it and finds the million in there. His life is no longer in debt. He cleared it with the help of the one who gave the gift, and now is free as long as he doesn't build up more debt. But even if he did, he knows once he forgives, he can just open the box and everything is forgiven for him.

But if he never opened the box regardless how many times it was given to him, he can't clear his debt. If he died before opening the box, he would have no more chances because he would not be alive to even have debt in the first place.

I know many people say death is not the end. It really is, though. We believe it is not. We hope it is not. We have faith it is not. We assume it is not. From what we know of life and death, our bodies do decay and our spirits/the energy that keeps us alive doesn't disappear but connects with the rest of the energy say of plants, ground, etc and keep things alive. We aren't special in those regards.

Everything we experience and the interpretation of those experiences-god ones included-are from our minds. If our minds aren't healthy, god doesn't just say "hey, I'm still here." If someone cannot function in thought the word god has no concept or meaning. If god is external, that would not matter. Since he is internal and mental (lack of better words), he exists if one knows themselves better.

But some people are given the box and they don't know how to open it. Others have no interest in opening it. While others shake it but their minds don't click that they can open the box instead.

Even some people like myself don't even see the box everyone else says they have. Then on top of that, you guys say you have a gift and someone gave it you you and you go on to explain how. If god is external, the gift would be for everyone and it would be inherit in life. It is not.

It's a personal experience. If one doesn't take that first chance and dies, they have no second chance. We like to think there is but to be awake is to understand we do not.

Our bodies, spirits, and mind isn't meant to function like this forever. Once we know this, we become wiser. When we yearn to live forever, we haven't got there yet. It doesn't matter, though. If you feel you got your million dollars and people can still get it without opening the box before death, so be.

Just when I read scripture people only have one chance. If they don't accept the gift of salvation, how are they saved?

By default, how is that logical?

 

[Katzpur]

Here's the thing.

If god gave the child the box at 13 and he didn't open it, he, by default, lost the benefit that's in the box. If there is a million dollars in the box and he doesn't open it, he lost out. Therefore, he lost his salvation to clear his debt. If he died that same night, he wouldn't just get the million dollars. He had his chance and didn't open the box.

Likewise, ten years later, he is presented with the same box. He looks at it, shakes it, reads about it, but doesn't open it. Since he doesn't open it even though he has the temptation to because of a gut feeling, he still loses out. It's the laws of logic. If you don't open the box, you won't know what's inside. If the million dollars would clear his debt, he wouldn't get it without opening the box. That was his second change to open the box but unless he opens it, he only has one chance to clear his debt.

At age 48 he finally says, okay. Let me open it. He opens it and finds the million in there. His life is no longer in debt. He cleared it with the help of the one who gave the gift, and now is free as long as he doesn't build up more debt. But even if he did, he knows once he forgives, he can just open the box and everything is forgiven for him.

But if he never opened the box regardless how many times it was given to him, he can't clear his debt. If he died before opening the box, he would have no more chances because he would not be alive to even have debt in the first place.

I know many people say death is not the end. It really is, though. We believe it is not. We hope it is not. We have faith it is not. We assume it is not. From what we know of life and death, our bodies do decay and our spirits/the energy that keeps us alive doesn't disappear but connects with the rest of the energy say of plants, ground, etc and keep things alive. We aren't special in those regards.

Everything we experience and the interpretation of those experiences-god ones included-are from our minds. If our minds aren't healthy, god doesn't just say "hey, I'm still here." If someone cannot function in thought the word god has no concept or meaning. If god is external, that would not matter. Since he is internal and mental (lack of better words), he exists if one knows themselves better.

But some people are given the box and they don't know how to open it. Others have no interest in opening it. While others shake it but their minds don't click that they can open the box instead.

Even some people like myself don't even see the box everyone else says they have. Then on top of that, you guys say you have a gift and someone gave it you you and you go on to explain how. If god is external, the gift would be for everyone and it would be inherit in life. It is not.

It's a personal experience. If one doesn't take that first chance and dies, they have no second chance. We like to think there is but to be awake is to understand we do not.

Our bodies, spirits, and mind isn't meant to function like this forever. Once we know this, we become wiser. When we yearn to live forever, we haven't got there yet. It doesn't matter, though. If you feel you got your million dollars and people can still get it without opening the box before death, so be.

Just when I read scripture people only have one chance. If they don't accept the gift of salvation, how are they saved?

By default, how is that logical?

Hey, I'm sorry, but I'm just not following your train of thought tonight. Maybe I just need to go to bed.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Hey, I'm sorry, but I'm just not following your train of thought tonight. Maybe I just need to go to bed.

Haha.

That's okay. Just saying ...

If I gave you a closed box (gift of salvation)

You did not know this gift was in this box.

You don't open the box so you do not receive the gift.

If you die before you receive the gift, by default, you are not saved.

If ten years later, do not open the gift and die, you are not saved

If at 48 you actually opened the box, and receive the gift of salvation, you are saved.

Once you have passed away, you have no other chance. It is just once chance to believe in christ and receive the gift. If you don't open the gift of salvation before you die, jesus will say he never knew you-since you had all your life to be saved and never took that chance.

Cliff notes

(This is from those who do not believe in purgatory when one is forgiven before one enters heaven)

 

[Fool]

We are told sometimes, that people who refused to accept Jesus, will somehow get a "second chance"at judgement. This seems highly unlikely, because of course that will "make"people "convert". It is a silly concept, aside from those who literally never got the oppurtunity. Scripture seems to back this, as well.



This isnt to say there cant be a second chance, but that is contextual

I didn't know Jesus was a tacky subject.

foolishness aside. you do not have to be an idolater to be a follower.

case in point, everyone within the USA has to abide by US laws but not everyone is a US citizen.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

(This is from those who do not believe in purgatory when one is forgiven before one enters heaven)

*gasp* No Purgatory from the pages of Dante! For shame!

 

[viole]

We are told sometimes, that people who refused to accept Jesus, will somehow get a "second chance"at judgement. This seems highly unlikely, because of course that will "make"people "convert". It is a silly concept, aside from those who literally never got the oppurtunity. Scripture seems to back this, as well.



This isnt to say there cant be a second chance, but that is contextual

It is a silly concept also for the ones who literally never got the opportunity, if you think about that.

First off, it would not be a second chance, but a first. They never heard of Jesus and the Bible, for Thor's sake.
Second, it renders the whole effort to spread the Gospel either useless or counterproductive. Which is not very rational, considering that missioning can be quite dodgy, in some places and times.

So we have two cases, at the pearly Gates:

Jesus: so, do you now believe in me?
Clueless soul: Sure. Incidentally, who are You?

Jesus: so, do you now believe in me?
Viole-like soul: You bet. Where is my harp?

Now, if you do not have this "second chance", things are even worse.

Ciao

- viole

 

[McBell]

How are you planning on attaining salvation Mestemia?
Perhaps there's a "bold empty claims" department in paradise.....you could head it up.

I see no reason to entertain the notion.

I have not seen anything to convince me that your claim for "salvation" is anything other than wishful thinking on your part.

Your "arguments" thus far have simply reinforced my thought it is nothing more than wishful thinking on your part.

When the best theists have is "you can't prove me wrong".....

 

[Kilgore Trout]

It appears that god is either using religious belief to filter out the uncritical and credulous, or god wants to spend eternity surrounded by vapid groupies.

Either way, I win.

 

[David1967]

I know a good Muslim family from Bosnia.

To add on to what Katzpur
said, I know a Japanese girl who is delightful. Happy, kind person, friendly to everybody, very generous to her friends. Seemed to have a really good heart

Getting to know people of other cultures and religions and realizing that there are good people everywhere kinda makes the thought of a righteous God torturing them forever because they weren't in the right club (so to speak) seems atrocious to say the least. The old question of "what happens if the missionary has a flat and the people don't hear the message" comes to mind.

 

[Ponder This]

We are told sometimes, that people who refused to accept Jesus, will somehow get a "second chance"at judgement.

So... is this hearsay or is there an authority on the subject making this claim?

As Dieter F. Uchtdorf, one of the top leaders of the Church, put it, "The more we learn about the gospel of Jesus Christ, the more we realize that endings here in mortality are not endings at all."

I agree. I see this in two different ways. In one case, you believe in an immortal soul, in which case, it's obviously unending. In another case, you believe that only this physical world exists. In that case, it follows that your existence in not dependent upon the existence of an immortal soul at all! But if all that defines "you" are these physical interactions, then it follows that your existence is merely part of an unending sequence of physical interactions which don't being or end with "you". Since, the ending of "you" is not the ending of the physical interactions that comprise who "you" are, it follows that you don't actually technically end at all. The only way to accept that "you" end, is to accept that "you" are something besides the physical interactions that compose "you". In other words, you must accept that you are not simply a physical entity.

I can't imagine a single human being that I know who would say that we only get one chance to accept Jesus Christ, and that if we don't act on that one opportunity, it's lost forever.

Why wouldn't He allow someone another chance after death, if He'd willingly allowed that person multiple chances during his life?

But if he never opened the box regardless how many times it was given to him, he can't clear his debt. If he died before opening the box, he would have no more chances because he would not be alive to even have debt in the first place.

I know many people say death is not the end. It really is, though. We believe it is not. We hope it is not. We have faith it is not. We assume it is not. From what we know of life and death, our bodies do decay and our spirits/the energy that keeps us alive doesn't disappear but connects with the rest of the energy say of plants, ground, etc and keep things alive. We aren't special in those regards.

The question I'm thinking about is: what is this existence that comprises who we really are?