Open Poll: Was Christianity a Jewish sect originally?

[Shermana]

Judging by the text and the historical record....

Was the religion we call "Christianity" today originally intended as an essentially Jewish sect? Or did the "orthodox" anti-Judaizers have it right that all traces of its Jewish Law was meant to be void? Have you been convinced by the evidence to either position? Do you agree that "Christianity" is a deviation from its original point, or that it was meant to be malleable and that it's current form is acceptable by its own origin's standards, or was it never meant to be Jewish and its "orthodox" form was what the whole Messiah story was meant to be?

Poll is open.

 

[Bob Dixon]

I think that, originally, Christianity was meant for Jews and converts to Judaism (who, in my opinion, are still real Jews).

That does not, however, mean that a non-Jew, such as myself, cannot get a great deal of benefit out of Jesus' teachings. All it means is that I cannot get much benefit out of the teachings that concentrate on specifically Jewish Laws.

 

[outhouse]

I would have voted for the top one

but I doubt it was even for converts.

strickly judaism


god-fearers who was basically pauls target, would not have been jesus target.


Jesus would have traveled to the poor poverty stricken villages in Galilee which would have been jewish only settlements, basically as a method for survival, healing and preaching for dinner scraps

 

[1137]

It was originally for Jews I believe. However, if the things Jesus supposedly said were actually said, he was one of the most "blasphemous" Jews to ever live. Coming in, claiming to be the messiah against reason, throwing out God's laws, his followers changing the old stories to fit their mythology...

 

[arthra]

I think Christianity was originally seen as a Jewish sect as the early disciples were Jews but it's teachings were universal and appealed to Gentiles and so the cultural boundaries eventually dissolved..

 

[Shermana]

It was originally for Jews I believe. However, if the things Jesus supposedly said were actually said, he was one of the most "blasphemous" Jews to ever live. Coming in, claiming to be the messiah against reason, throwing out God's laws, his followers changing the old stories to fit their mythology...

I don't believe he threw out God's laws at all. That issue itself is a debate and an issue of how "Christians" don't understand what he taught, if he did, he contradicted himself most blatantly with Matthew 5:17-20 and Luke 16:17-18. Some even outright change the Greek to get him to mean something completely different such as the NIV with Mark 7:14, which the text itself says his thing about "What goes in your mouth" is a "Parable", which means "Not everything he just said was meant to be taken 100% literally". It's important to know the difference between what Jesus actually taught and what Paul taught about what he taught. There's also the issue of interpolations by anti-Judaizers.

 

[Shermana]

I think Christianity was originally seen as a Jewish sect as the early disciples were Jews but it's teachings were universal and appealed to Gentiles and so the cultural boundaries eventually dissolved..

The teachings are only somewhat universal, most of them are very specific to a Jewish lifestyle. The "Cultural boundaries" that "Eventually dissolved" were only dissolved by the Anti-judaizing gentiles who wanted to eliminate all traces of the Jewishness from the Jewish sect.

 

[arthra]

The teachings are only somewhat universal, most of them are very specific to a Jewish lifestyle. The "Cultural boundaries" that "Eventually dissolved" were only dissolved by the Anti-judaizing gentiles who wanted to eliminate all traces of the Jewishness from the Jewish sect.

Old Israelite Nazarine,

Now you've got me I'm curious ... What teachings were only "somewhat universal"?

 

[Shermana]

Old Israelite Nazarine,

Now you've got me I'm curious ... What teachings were only "somewhat universal"?

For starters, I believe the prohibition on marrying a divorced woman is nowhere to be found anywhere else.

And there's the issue that Jesus basically taught obedience to the commandments of Jewish Law (Matthew 5:17-20). The Female Disciples obey Sabbath "as commanded" at the end of Luke, so he apparently taught observance of that (despite Christian arguments about the "Lord of the Sabbath" issue which has possible manuscript-interpolation issues). While much of it can be seen as Universal ("Love your neighbor"), the very idea of what "Love your neighbor" means implies obedience to the commandments.

 

[Pegg]

Judging by the text and the historical record....

Was the religion we call "Christianity" today originally intended as an essentially Jewish sect? Or did the "orthodox" anti-Judaizers have it right that all traces of its Jewish Law was meant to be void? Have you been convinced by the evidence to either position? Do you agree that "Christianity" is a deviation from its original point, or that it was meant to be malleable and that it's current form is acceptable by its own origin's standards, or was it never meant to be Jewish and its "orthodox" form was what the whole Messiah story was meant to be?

Poll is open.

christianity is not a deviation... it is a continuation and fulfillment of what was foretold in the hebrew scriptures.

And you really need to diferentiate between 'Judaism' and the 'hebrew scriptures' because later jews did not continue with the hebrew scriptures or the law...even today you know that Jews are not fully following the mosaic law. So Judaism does not fully represent the law of Moses or the prophets.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Those are predictably lousy poll options. I suspect that Jesus and the Jerusalem sect had much at all to do with Christianity.

 

[Me Myself]

christianity is not a deviation... it is a continuation and fulfillment of what was foretold in the hebrew scriptures.

And you really need to diferentiate between 'Judaism' and the 'hebrew scriptures' because later jews did not continue with the hebrew scriptures or the law...even today you know that Jews are not fully following the mosaic law. So Judaism does not fully represent the law of Moses or the prophets.

Oh, very interesting point

 

[Me Myself]

I want to put "obviously yes" but the rest of the things that say on both "yes"es I do not entirely agree on, so I cannot vote u_u

 

[jazzymom]

Judging by the text and the historical record....

Was the religion we call "Christianity" today originally intended as an essentially Jewish sect? Or did the "orthodox" anti-Judaizers have it right that all traces of its Jewish Law was meant to be void? Have you been convinced by the evidence to either position? Do you agree that "Christianity" is a deviation from its original point, or that it was meant to be malleable and that it's current form is acceptable by its own origin's standards, or was it never meant to be Jewish and its "orthodox" form was what the whole Messiah story was meant to be?

Poll is open.

Jesus was born into a world of Roman occupation which was brutal. It was a time of messianic hopefulness and Jesus was not the first nor the last who people hoped would be the messiah and would fulfill what the messiah was to do.

He was not the messiah but his followers were Jews the people he was speaking to were Jews. In fact to follow Jesus you needed to be Jewish or convert to Judaism. The Jewish followers of Jesus were a sect within Judaism originally.

I see him as a teacher who had a following. Christianity did not exist at this point in history.

 

[Bob Dixon]

christianity is not a deviation... it is a continuation and fulfillment of what was foretold in the hebrew scriptures.

And you really need to diferentiate between 'Judaism' and the 'hebrew scriptures' because later jews did not continue with the hebrew scriptures or the law...even today you know that Jews are not fully following the mosaic law. So Judaism does not fully represent the law of Moses or the prophets.

Today's Jews are incapable of following the full Mosaic Law because there is no Temple.

Now you know.
And knowing is half the battle.

 

[Caladan]

Judging by the text and the historical record....

Was the religion we call "Christianity" today originally intended as an essentially Jewish sect? Or did the "orthodox" anti-Judaizers have it right that all traces of its Jewish Law was meant to be void? Have you been convinced by the evidence to either position? Do you agree that "Christianity" is a deviation from its original point, or that it was meant to be malleable and that it's current form is acceptable by its own origin's standards, or was it never meant to be Jewish and its "orthodox" form was what the whole Messiah story was meant to be?

Poll is open.

The earliest form of Christianity was still comprised of a Jewish community who worshipped according to their religion: Judaism. The Hebrew Bible (later termed 'Old Testament') was central and valid. Jewish rituals and practices were valid. Including the Sabbath, Kosher dietary laws, etc.
So no, Jewish law was certainly neither void nor meant to be void.
However, there is not much sense about sticking to the 'deviation narrative' in a long term historical perspective. Christianity had a fusion with local cultures, and in various ways enriched them. Something else was set in motion, and Christian civilizations rose in their own right. It's very easy to say that Christianity has deviated from the original, but the truth is that early Christians and later Christians developed countless of original material, created communities, established a well developed sense of aesthetic, and more than that they even brought the Hebrew Biblical literature to all corners of the earth.

Also, on a personal level I always found the wit and messages of Jesus as the gospels paint them to be inspiring in the sense of higher morality over mindless rituals, or religious monopoly. Sadly in this case in Judaism (but also the Imperial religion of Rome). So I do not see why Gaellic, Greek, Goth, Armenian, or Berber early Christians could not have developed an original faith and philosophy. As history goes, that is exactly what happened.

 

[Shermana]

christianity is not a deviation... it is a continuation and fulfillment of what was foretold in the hebrew scriptures.

And you really need to diferentiate between 'Judaism' and the 'hebrew scriptures' because later jews did not continue with the hebrew scriptures or the law...even today you know that Jews are not fully following the mosaic law. So Judaism does not fully represent the law of Moses or the prophets.

I didn't use the term "Judaism", as I now understand the term is reserved exclusively for rabbinicists. However, "Anti-judaizer" is a very concrete term used in acadamia to describe those who think the Christ meant doing away with all Jewish concepts. The term "Jewish" however has no concrete usage, it can very well apply to the beliefs of the 1st century Nazarenes, the Pharisees, the Sadducees, and virtually anyone of Jewish descent.

As for whether modern Jews follow the Law as it was intended, I agree that they don't, but that's for another thread.

Like Bob said above, when there is no Temple and established Priesthood, there simply cannot be sacrifices. But according to Zechariah 14 (And perhaps Ezekiel), that's all going to change in the future, in the days when the Gentiles must go to Jerusalem for the Feast of Tabernacles or be struck with plague and drought. Saul was punished severely for making unauthorized sacrifices, and the Bablyonian exiles had no means of making them either, so we can see that the Bible points to the idea that we obey what's possible.

 

[Shermana]

Jesus was born into a world of Roman occupation which was brutal. It was a time of messianic hopefulness and Jesus was not the first nor the last who people hoped would be the messiah and would fulfill what the messiah was to do.

He was not the messiah but his followers were Jews the people he was speaking to were Jews. In fact to follow Jesus you needed to be Jewish or convert to Judaism. The Jewish followers of Jesus were a sect within Judaism originally.

I see him as a teacher who had a following. Christianity did not exist at this point in history.

I believe he was, but I'm glad to see you recognize that it was at least not intended to be deviant from Torah obedience and that it was in fact a "sect within Judaism" (and the use of the term "Judaism" as Pegg pointed out is contestable). I believe that if the world at least understood this fact, whether they agreed he was the Jewish messiah, it would be a much, much better place. Feel free to click option 1 even if you don't agree with the whole concept of it.

 

[Shermana]

I want to put "obviously yes" but the rest of the things that say on both "yes"es I do not entirely agree on, so I cannot vote u_u

What don't you agree with on the "yes"s?

Those are predictably lousy poll options. I suspect that Jesus and the Jerusalem sect had much at all to do with Christianity.

And what would you have as a fourth option? (Or 5th)?

 

[outhouse]

The earliest form of Christianity was still comprised of a Jewish community who worshipped according to their religion: Judaism. The Hebrew Bible (later termed 'Old Testament') was central and valid. Jewish rituals and practices were valid. Including the Sabbath, Kosher dietary laws, etc.
So no, Jewish law was certainly neither void nor meant to be void.
However, there is not much sense about sticking to the 'deviation narrative' in a long term historical perspective. Christianity had a fusion with local cultures, and in various ways enriched them. Something else was set in motion, and Christian civilizations rose in their own right. It's very easy to say that Christianity has deviated from the original, but the truth is that early Christians and later Christians developed countless of original material, created communities, established a well developed sense of aesthetic, and more than that they even brought the Hebrew Biblical literature to all corners of the earth.

Also, on a personal level I always found the wit and messages of Jesus as the gospels paint them to be inspiring in the sense of higher morality over mindless rituals, or religious monopoly. Sadly in this case in Judaism (but also the Imperial religion of Rome). So I do not see why Gaellic, Greek, Goth, Armenian, or Berber early Christians could not have developed an original faith and philosophy. As history goes, that is exactly what happened.

I think the original jewish message jesus produced was a beautiful thing looking at Q and the gospel of Thomas.


I have nothing that thrills me in the romans version of jesus were left with built on mythology of unknown authors, or paul. All far removed from the real events of jesus.