Opinions on a cartoon (No, not THAT cartoon!)

[Smoke]

I don't think it's funny so much as it is perceptive. Note that the cartoon doesn't say all Muslims are terrorists; on the contrary, it notes that they are "mildly dyspeptic" over terrorism. And it's true that we hear Muslims saying terrorism is not appropriate. But we don't see Muslims being anywhere near as upset about terrorism as they are about perceived insults to Islam.

Those who think that's not true, please tell me how many Muslim mass protests against terrorism you've seen? How often have you seen thousands of Muslims out in the streets protesting (peacefully, of course) against terrorism?

The vast majority of Muslims have absolutely nothing to do with terrorism.

I think they do. Any Muslim who teaches that "martyrs" go straight to paradise, or that martyrs can choose 70 other people to enter paradise, helps reinforce the worldview of the terrorists and helps validate their actions. Any Muslim who teaches that it is EVER permissible to commit violence against those who reject or insult your religion is helping to validate the actions of the terrorists. Any Muslim who teaches that Islam is the only true religion teaches, by inference, that all other religions are harmful, and that defending Islam -- even by violence -- is a matter of eternal importance.

Of course, it's not just Muslims. We could make similar criticisms of Christians, Jews, Hindus, and Communists.

A woman in Bosnia is not going to march in the streets against car bombings in Iraq any more than a woman in Croatia is going to do. She'll calmly speak out against it at every turn, in a manner as disconnected from that part of the world as she is, and that's it.

But when Islam is insulted, that's not abstract or on the other side of the world - that's against her as well, so her response will be more angry and more personal.

That's exactly what the cartoon is saying: that Muslims are more upset about "insults" to Islam than they are about terrorism.

Racist.

Whatever it is, it's not racist.

most christians are white

No, they aren't.

most muslims are arabic or semite

No, they aren't.

You may think of Christianity as a European religion and Islam as an Arab religion, but that just doesn't reflect the spread of both religions through Latin America (where "race" is harder to pin down), as well as Africa and Asia.

 

[Smoke]

There is none of the above, at all, in the cartoon.

Thats your opinion.
I disagree completely.

Fortunately, it's not a matter of opinion at all. It's a matter of knowing what racism is -- and you didn't object to the definition c0da cited -- and seeing whether there IS any of it in the cartoon. It's a pretty simple task. There isn't, and insisting that there is doesn't make it so.

 

[Djamila]

That's exactly what the cartoon is saying: that Muslims are more upset about "insults" to Islam than they are about terrorism.

But you have to think of us all as one group to hold this point of view. I don't expect every leader from every branch of the Christian faith to apologize for the Pope's words because I know the Pope doesn't represent Orthodox Christians, nor many other branches of the faith. I don't expect to see Christians in the streets of Manila protesting the IRA. I don't expect to see Christians in the streets of Buenos Aires protesting Serbian nationalists...?

 

[darkpenguin]

awsome cartoon, very funny and like all things funny should be taken light heartedly!
if you can't laugh at oneself who can you laugh at?

 

[Smoke]

But you have to think of us all as one group to hold this point of view. I don't expect every leader from every branch of the Christian faith to apologize for the Pope's words because I know the Pope doesn't represent Orthodox Christians, nor many other branches of the faith. I don't expect to see Christians in the streets of Manila protesting the IRA. I don't expect to see Christians in the streets of Buenos Aires protesting Serbian nationalists...?

Mila, as far as I can tell, the only thing that gets Christians out in the street protesting is when they're not allowed to force other people to follow their religious beliefs (for instance: abortion, gay rights, Terri Schiavo). As I said, everything I said about Muslims, you could make similar points about other groups.

But the fact remains that we DO see Muslims out protesting cartoons, and protesting insults from the Pope, but we don't see Muslims out protesting against terrorism. Clearly, most Muslims are more likely to think a cartoon is an insult to Islam than they are to think terrorism is an insult to Islam. Terrorism simply doesn't bother most Muslims as much as perceived insults do.

I don't think it's much of a defense to say Christians aren't any better. I never said they were.

 

[Flappycat]

Flappy, it says "Muslim" in the cartoon - NOT "Terrorist"!
I think you read it like this: MUSLIM=TERRORIST

I was referring to the original ones, as was the person I was responding to. You would have realized this if you had been paying attention instead of acting on prejudice.

You think that the more recent cartoon is equivalent to hatred. This is ridiculous. Its maker didn't advocate persecution or discrimination against any group. He drew what he saw. If you would like to find hatred, seek out any of several neo-nazi organizations, or seek the company of those in more conservative parts of North America. Perhaps then you'll find someone who will provide hatred for you. A cartoon isn't hatred. It's a deliberately grotesque illustration of someone's views and opinions. The turban-wearing fellow with the curved sword was a caricature: he was drawn this way to show the cartoonist's opinion of his behavior. For example, if you were to throw a fit of temper at someone, an observer might draw a picture of the scene with your hair in a mess and steam coming out of your ears and, needless to say, looking nothing at all like you.

Listen, the cartoon says exactly this, verbatim: "Over political cartoons, the Pope, and any Western influence at all in parts of the East, we've had mass demonstrations all over the globe. Though I concede that Muslim leaders have spoken against acts of violence by Muslim extremists, what happened to the intense emotions we saw over the cartoons? Do they really have such a sense of isolation from the world around them that they can only show emotion over a petty slight against their religion or culture? Really, I thought we left that sort of attitude in the dark ages. They're making themselves look like desert-bred nutjobs." Decide for youself if you find this offensive, but I assure you that the cartoon says this and nothing more.

 

[Djamila]

Mila, as far as I can tell, the only thing that gets Christians out in the street protesting is when they're not allowed to force other people to follow their religious beliefs (for instance: abortion, gay rights, Terri Schiavo). As I said, everything I said about Muslims, you could make similar points about other groups.

But the fact remains that we DO see Muslims out protesting cartoons, and protesting insults from the Pope, but we don't see Muslims out protesting against terrorism. Clearly, most Muslims are more likely to think a cartoon is an insult to Islam than they are to think terrorism is an insult to Islam. Terrorism simply doesn't bother most Muslims as much as perceived insults do.

I don't think it's much of a defense to say Christians aren't any better. I never said they were.

That's not what I'm trying to do. You're saying "Muslims" like all 1.3 billion of us are some coherent group you can even begin to stereotype.

Do you mean North Africans? Perhaps Europeans? Maybe Southeast Asians? Maybe Central Asians? Maybe Arabs? Maybe Persians? Maybe Chechens, Ingush, Dagestani? Bosniak, Gorani, Albanian, Sandzaklije? Do you mean Sunni branches, or Shia branches? Maybe Sufi, Hanafi?

 

[c0da]

But you have to think of us all as one group to hold this point of view. I don't expect every leader from every branch of the Christian faith to apologize for the Pope's words because I know the Pope doesn't represent Orthodox Christians, nor many other branches of the faith.

That analogy is completely irrelevant because the Pope has absolutely no reason to apologize.

I don't expect to see Christians in the streets of Manila protesting the IRA. I don't expect to see Christians in the streets of Buenos Aires protesting Serbian nationalists...?

I don't know about the other forum members, but I don't expect that either. I do, however, expect prominent Muslim leaders to be more than just indifferent about the behaviour of some of their fellow Muslims.

 

[TashaN]

The cartoons are well drawn and funny, but I don't think they are all that accurate. From what I'm reading on Muslim blogs, Muslims are increasingly and decisively turning against terrorism. Of course, it will take a year or two for that fact to be noted by the alert and astute reporters of the major networks....

You know, judging public sentiment can be a tricky thing. If you go just by how many large scale protests against something there are, you can be deluded into thinking the public is not actually against something. For instance, when was the last time you heard of a large scale protest against the KKK in the US? But the overwhelming majority of Americans are against the KKK. In much the same way, Muslim opinion might be turning against terrorism, but that doesn't mean you're going to see large scale protests against terrorism.

You know .. I wish that there is a lot of people think the way you do. I might post that in the wishes thread made by sister "Peace" in the Islam forum.

:clap

 

[TashaN]

Rather than trying to attack British media, why don't you provide us with a link to Muslim leaders speaking out against Muslim terrorism and threats of violence. That will make your argument much more convincing.

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=37461

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=34172

 

[TashaN]

Now you're getting it. Absurdity was the entire point. What a cartoon is not intended to do is accurately represent its target. For example, Djamila let on that a Muslim woman is apt to take stronger personal offense over the Pope's comments on Islam than over car bombings elsewhere in the world; the cartoon says exactly this

Note that the cartoon doesn't say all Muslims are terrorists; on the contrary, it notes that they are "mildly dyspeptic" over terrorism. And it's true that we hear Muslims saying terrorism is not appropriate. But we don't see Muslims being anywhere near as upset about terrorism as they are about perceived insults to Islam.

Please read post # 3 & 7.

 

[lilithu]

How is a cartoon criticising Islam's response to terrorism racist?

You don't think it's racist to depict "Muslims" as bearded Arab men wearing turbans and waving scimitars around?

I suppose then it would be fine for me to depict all Buddhists as bald-headed East Asian people wearing a saffron robe. I mean, it's just a caricature, right?

Is anyone else here going to respond to Djamila's point that there are 1.3 billion Muslims in the world? There are Muslims in Europe (and no, they're not all Arab immigrants), Asia, Africa, and the Americas. One of the largest ethnic groups in China is Muslim. There's the Nation of Islam in the U.S., which is largely African American. The most populous Muslim country in the world is Indonesia... And yet, when Westerners want to depict Muslims it is always the Arab man in a turban.

Djamila brings many blessings to RF, but one of my favorites is that she is living proof amongst us of the non-radical Muslims, trying to live their faith openly as best they can, open to criticism but still proud of their faith. Yall interact with her regularly, along with other Muslims here on RF and yet, when this topic comes up (as it so often does) it's back to the same stupid questions like "If there are moderate Muslims, then how come I don't see them? Why don't they say anything?"

 

[darkpenguin]

it's still a funny comic, you know thats what comics are meant to be, funny! laugh and be happy!

 

[Flappycat]

Please read post # 3 & 7.

Read every post I've made in this thread. I'm right. Islamic extremists make the entire Muslim world look bad, minority or not, so take the issue up with them instead of with people who are just drawing what they see. You have something to do with it because you can do more to bring the extremists under control. Every vile thing they do insults Islam, man. Don't you realize that? When someone points out with a cartoon that Islam is looking pretty silly, though, you blame the cartoonist, and all the cartoonist has done is state a truth. People in the West actually are likely to have that perception, and it's because of imbeciles in your own clothing whom you haven't yet realized are the worst enemies you have.

 

[TashaN]

What do y'all think of this?

Offensive?
Accurate?
Funny?
Distasteful?

I think the one who did it have an idea but he didn't represent it in the way it should be (not that profesional).

IMHO, even though i disagree about publishing such a thing, not to encourage some ignorant and uneducated people to do more violence (i.e. making a cut and paste job to many muslims and arabian forums claiming that the whole west "all of them" is against us and they see muslims like that) but In general, i see this cartoon as nothing, compared to somthing which is directed toward our beloved prophet, Mohammed "peace be upon him".

Honestly, this is what Muslims would think about, because many of them might not get the chance to communicate with well educated and good guys from all other places and beliefs around the world like you guys and most of members in here in RF, the way i do, me and the other muslims in here. It's not their fault, because they don't see americans or the west in general protesting against what is happening to their fellow muslims in Iraq, Afghanistan, Palestine and Lebanon, and to speak loud about those forgotton young kids, old people, and innocents, in the wide spread american secret and unsecret prisons around the world. Does this ring a bell with you?

Anyway, just one thing, i wonder if somthing similar was directed at Jews for instance, would that mean the artist who did it might be charged and will stand in front of the court for being anti-semitic and he will pay the price for it (i.e. prison, paying few thousnands as a punishment with a couple of comments in newspaper around the world)?

Ummm, i guess i will choose from your list "Distasteful".

 

[Buttercup]

But the fact remains that we DO see Muslims out protesting cartoons, and protesting insults from the Pope, but we don't see Muslims out protesting against terrorism. Clearly, most Muslims are more likely to think a cartoon is an insult to Islam than they are to think terrorism is an insult to Islam. Terrorism simply doesn't bother most Muslims as much as perceived insults do.

I think this is a very true sentiment, Midnightblue...and as usual, you are right on the mark.

But, do you suppose there have been peaceful protests by Muslims against terrorism that are not widely covered by the media because they are much less emotional and non sensational than protests against insults?

 

[TashaN]

When someone points out with a cartoon that Islam is looking pretty silly, though, you blame the cartoonist

When did i blame anyone?

People in the West actually are likely to have that perception, and it's because of imbeciles in your own clothing whom you haven't yet realized are the worst enemies you have.

If those minority cause such a thing for you and others in the west, so i wonder what the behavior of the US president for instance (the one who *supposed* to represent all the americans) make the muslims feel toward the americans for instance? !!!

Act of the Minority = (Muslims) ?? No way.

Act of a President "Bush" = (Americans) ?? Ummm.

 

[Flappycat]

If those minority cause such a thing for you and others in the west, so i wonder what the behavior of the US president for instance (the one who *supposed* to represent all the americans) make the muslims feel toward the americans for instance? !!!

Yes. Bush makes our country look asinine. And?

 

[TashaN]

Yes. Bush makes our country look asinine. And?

Do you think that it's a good thing to think of all Americans as supporters of Mr. Bush in everything he do and WILL do by others around the world and Muslism especially?

 

[Flappycat]

Do you think that it's a good thing to think of all Americans as supporters of Mr. Bush in everything he do and WILL do by others around the world and Muslism especially?

No. You're still missing the point. The cartoon isn't intended to be accurate. They never are. They're all about perceptions.