Oppenheimer

[exchemist]

There’s one moment in the film where Oppenheimer says (can’t remember to who) that anti-Semitism could be America’s trump card in the race for the bomb - Hitler having referred to quantum physics as “Jewish science”. It’s just a brief moment in the movie, by it’s interesting to think that in debarring any Jew from holding a professorship in a German university, the Nazis cost Berlin (and later, Vienna) a place at the forefront of theoretical physics, arguably setting them back a decade.

In 1933, Hitler apparently ranted at Max Planck that “If the dismissal of Jewish scientists means the annihilation of contemporary German science, then we shall do without science for a few years!” *
There’s a dark irony there, maybe even a touch of Karma (which Oppenheimer would surely have recognised).

* Adam Becker, Copenhagen in Manhattan. (What is Real?)

Oh definitely. It set Germany back in physics quite seriously. They still had Heisenberg, but they lost Einstein of course, and Pauli and Schrödinger (both Austrian), Wigner and Teller (both Hungarian but got out nonetheless), Born (German but became British)...ALL of whom were of Jewish descent.

Bohr (whose mother was Jewish) stayed in Copenhagen, where he helped Jewish physicists to emigrate. He even got two people who had gold Nobel Prize medals to dissolve them in aqua regia and kept them thus, in liquid form, on a shelf in his institute! After the war, the gold was re-precipitated and the Nobel Foundation struck new medals from it. Fantastic stuff.

About the only people in QM who were not Jewish were Planck (by then very old) Heisenberg, de Broglie and Dirac! So Hitler was right: it was Jewish physics. And the bomb was thus largely a Jewish bomb - the impetus for which was 100% understandable of course.

Amusingly, there was even for a short while something called "Deutsche Physik" or "Arische Physik", led by a character called Starck (of the Starck Effect) who profited from the dismissal of all the Jewish physicists. Heisenberg was even stigmatised as a "White Jew" because he insisted on carrying on his "Jewish" physics regardless. At one point his mother rang Himmler's mother (!) to get the SS off his back.

Max Planck's son was executed for taking part in the plot to assassinate Hitler. Heisenberg may have deliberately dragged his feet over the work on a Nazi atom bomb. No one knows, but it went badly, either because of that or because they had got rid of all the talent apart from Heisenberg himself.

I feel sure there's another film in all this, on what an intellectual disaster this was for Northern Europe and all the heroics and tricks that were played to get people through it all.

 

[Revoltingest]

Agreed - it was just a slighly jarring - and as always slightly embarrassing - moment to be confronted with bonking and tits for no good reason, in the midst of a serious film.

Many directors are convinced that we long to
see exchange of bodily fluids in every movie.
I'd rather give the lovers some privacy.

 

[Glaurung]

Agreed - it was just a slighly jarring - and as always slightly embarrassing - moment to be confronted with bonking and tits for no good reason, in the midst of a serious film. I honestly don't know why directors feel they have to do it. I'm sure that most in the audience don't really like it much and it can't be fun for the actors and especially perhaps the actresses.

Initially, I almost lost interest in seeing the movie when I learnt that it contained sex scenes. But I had already agreed to go see it with my father, so I was prepared for the cringe going in.

But overall it was thought-provoking which I suppose is the sign of a good film.

Yep. I hope Oppenheimer's success inspires studios to make more historical and biographical films like it going forward.

 

[RestlessSoul]

Many directors are convinced that we long to
see exchange of bodily fluids in every movie.
I'd rather give the lovers some privacy.

Yeah, definitely. I often find myself wishing they’d leave the camera outside the bedroom door, and leave the proceedings to the audience’s imagination. This could be because I am now 62.

 

[Debater Slayer]

Oh definitely. It set Germany back in physics quite seriously. They still had Heisenberg, but they lost Einstein of course, and Pauli and Schrödinger (both Austrian), Wigner and Teller (both Hungarian but got out nonetheless), Born (German but became British)...ALL of whom were of Jewish descent.

Bohr (whose mother was Jewish) stayed in Copenhagen, where he helped Jewish physicists to emigrate. He even got two people who had gold Nobel Prize medals to dissolve them in aqua regia and kept them thus, in liquid form, on a shelf in his institute! After the war, the gold was re-precipitated and the Nobel Foundation struck new medals from it. Fantastic stuff.

About the only people in QM who were not Jewish were Planck (by then very old) Heisenberg, de Broglie and Dirac! So Hitler was right: it was Jewish physics. And the bomb was thus largely a Jewish bomb - the impetus for which was 100% understandable of course.

Amusingly, there was even for a short while something called "Deutsche Physik" or "Arische Physik", led by a character called Starck (of the Starck Effect) who profited from the dismissal of all the Jewish physicists. Heisenberg was even stigmatised as a "White Jew" because he insisted on carrying on his "Jewish" physics regardless. At one point his mother rang Himmler's mother (!) to get the SS off his back.

Max Planck's son was executed for taking part in the plot to assassinate Hitler. Heisenberg may have deliberately dragged his feet over the work on a Nazi atom bomb. No one knows, but it went badly, either because of that or because they had got rid of all the talent apart from Heisenberg himself.

I feel sure there's another film in all this, on what an intellectual disaster this was for Northern Europe and all the heroics and tricks that were played to get people through it all.

The movie has made me explore this topic (among others) more, because I also found it quite interesting that so many of the prominent scientists at the time were Jewish. In later decades, many Jewish researchers have also been excellent and highly prolific.

One theory I have read about that tries to explain this proposes that the academic excellence is mainly because many Jewish communities encourage and foster pursuit of knowledge and intellect. I think this makes a lot of sense. Another theory, which seems to be largely fringe, proposes that the excellence is due to "genes resulting in high IQ," which strikes me as blatantly racist and unevidenced, like other theories trying to link intelligence with "race."

I wonder what the current landscape of science will look like in hindsight, 50 or 60 years from now. Europe is still prolific in physics and has CERN, but China and India are now powerhouses of patents and published research. I think the current scientific landscape is much more diverse than it was in previous decades.

 

[exchemist]

Yeah, definitely. I often find myself wishing they’d leave the camera outside the bedroom door, and leave the proceedings to the audience’s imagination. This could be because I am now 62.

Hear hear. If you want to go to a sex movie, go to a sex movie. If not, we all know what happens so there’s no need to show it. Just get on with the plot.

 

[Rachel Rugelach]

The movie has made me explore this topic (among others) more, because I also found it quite interesting that so many of the prominent scientists at the time were Jewish. In later decades, many Jewish researchers have also been excellent and highly prolific.

One theory I have read about that tries to explain this proposes that the academic excellence is mainly because many Jewish communities encourage and foster pursuit of knowledge and intellect. I think this makes a lot of sense. Another theory, which seems to be largely fringe, proposes that the excellence is due to "genes resulting in high IQ," which strikes me as blatantly racist and unevidenced, like other theories trying to link intelligence with "race."

I wonder what the current landscape of science will look like in hindsight, 50 or 60 years from now. Europe is still prolific in physics and has CERN, but China and India are now powerhouses of patents and published research. I think the current scientific landscape is much more diverse than it was in previous decades.

I've heard both those theories about why Jews are over-represented in the sciences. Considering that we make up such a small percentage (0.2%) of the entire world's population, about 20% of Nobel Prize winners have been Jews.

I'm more inclined to go with the theory that this is because (as you wrote) "many Jewish communities encourage and foster pursuit of knowledge and intellect." There's an old Jewish joke that, when a Jewish child is born, his mother sees only three options for his future: 1. Doctor, 2. Lawyer, 3. Failure. I think that the "Tiger Moms" of the Asian community may be a reason why Asians exceed, as well.

I haven't yet seen Oppenheimer, and I may wait until it comes out on DVD. Movies about atomic bombs and their development kind make me queasy.

 

[exchemist]

The movie has made me explore this topic (among others) more, because I also found it quite interesting that so many of the prominent scientists at the time were Jewish. In later decades, many Jewish researchers have also been excellent and highly prolific.

One theory I have read about that tries to explain this proposes that the academic excellence is mainly because many Jewish communities encourage and foster pursuit of knowledge and intellect. I think this makes a lot of sense. Another theory, which seems to be largely fringe, proposes that the excellence is due to "genes resulting in high IQ," which strikes me as blatantly racist and unevidenced, like other theories trying to link intelligence with "race."

I wonder what the current landscape of science will look like in hindsight, 50 or 60 years from now. Europe is still prolific in physics and has CERN, but China and India are now powerhouses of patents and published research. I think the current scientific landscape is much more diverse than it was in previous decades.

I'd like to hear from some of our Jewish participants on that. All I can say from Jewish people I've known is that there can be a certain self-containment, recognition that the human world can be hostile and you need your wits. And they do respect the law of course - lots of Jewish lawyers. But I see Rachel has replied while I'm writing this so let me read what she has to say.

 

[exchemist]

I've heard both those theories about why Jews are over-represented in the sciences. Considering that we make up such a small percentage (0.2%) of the entire world's population, about 20% of Nobel Prize winners have been Jews.

I'm more inclined to go with the theory that this is because (as you wrote) "many Jewish communities encourage and foster pursuit of knowledge and intellect." There's an old Jewish joke that, when a Jewish child is born, his mother sees only three options for his future: 1. Doctor, 2. Lawyer, 3. Failure. I think that the "Tiger Moms" of the Asian community may be a reason why Asians exceed, as well.

I haven't yet seen Oppenheimer, and I may wait until it comes out on DVD. Movies about atomic bombs and their development kind make me queasy.

Understand that. But one of the things that struck me about the film was that the bomb project was originally to defeat Nazi Germany and that's why so many Jewish physicists were willing to work on it. In the event of course Germany capitulated before it was ready, but by then the project had its own momentum - in fact it was almost ready to go - so there was no way it would be canned at that stage. And there was still Japan to defeat, not to mention suspicions that the USSR had its own bomb programme (which it did, courtesy of Klaus Fuchs, who the British had offered to the project and who turned out to be a Soviet spy, driven by his pacifist leanings).

 

[Debater Slayer]

Understand that. But one of the things that struck me about the film was that the bomb project was originally to defeat Nazi Germany and that's why so many Jewish physicists were willing to work on it. In the event of course Germany capitulated before it was ready, but by then the project had its own momentum - in fact it was almost ready to go - so there was no way it would be canned at that stage. And there was still Japan to defeat, not to mention suspicions that the USSR had its own bomb programme (which it did, courtesy of Klaus Fuchs, who the British had offered to the project and who turned out to be a Soviet spy, driven by his pacifist leanings).

I actually think that, at least in hindsight, it was a net positive that the Soviet Union developed atomic weapons when it did and the US and its allies didn't end up with a monopoly on the technology, with a consequently unparalleled military advantage over other global powers. If the existence of WMDs is inevitable, it seems to me that mutual deterrence is far preferable to unilateral possession thereof.

 

[Rachel Rugelach]

Understand that. But one of the things that struck me about the film was that the bomb project was originally to defeat Nazi Germany and that's why so many Jewish physicists were willing to work on it. In the event of course Germany capitulated before it was ready, but by then the project had its own momentum - in fact it was almost ready to go - so there was no way it would be canned at that stage. And there was still Japan to defeat, not to mention suspicions that the USSR had its own bomb programme (which it did, courtesy of Klaus Fuchs, who the British had offered to the project and who turned out to be a Soviet spy, driven by his pacifist leanings).

Yes, and I also agree with your statement in your previous post having a great deal to do with Jews excelling (and Jewish parents pushing their children to excel): "All I can say from Jewish people I've known is that there can be a certain self-containment, recognition that the human world can be hostile and you need your wits."

 

[Kathryn]

Hey, all I know is that history is generally written by the victors. I liked the movie though.

 

[exchemist]

I actually think that, at least in hindsight, it was a net positive that the Soviet Union developed atomic weapons when it did and the US and its allies didn't end up with a monopoly on the technology, with a consequently unparalleled military advantage over other global powers. If the existence of WMDs is inevitable, it seems to me that mutual deterrence is far preferable to unilateral possession thereof.

That was Fuchs's rationale, certainly. For which he did 10 years in a British prison, and then was deported to the GDR.

 

[exchemist]

Hey, all I know is that history is generally written by the victors. I liked the movie though.

Yes, the point of such films is to explore that history and challenge it.

 

[Kathryn]

Yes, the point of such films is to explore that history and challenge it.

OK. iI didn't seem like it was three hours long. However, I do encourage everyone to visit a restroom before watching it and not to drink a lot of anything while watching it.

 

[Debater Slayer]

OK. iI didn't seem like it was three hours long. However, I do encourage everyone to visit a restroom before watching it and not to drink a lot of anything while watching it.

The main IMAX theater here usually has a 10-minute break in the middle of any movie it screens, which was especially useful for this movie.

 

[exchemist]

Yes, and I also agree with your statement in your previous post having a great deal to do with Jews excelling (and Jewish parents pushing their children to excel): "All I can say from Jewish people I've known is that there can be a certain self-containment, recognition that the human world can be hostile and you need your wits."

Yes, their unhappy history may have bred a certain self-sufficient attitude of mind. Perhaps that self-containment also helps explain their cultivation of music. There are so many Jewish musicians - especially perhaps violinists (Oistrakh bros, Milstein, Menuhin, Perlman....). The violin did originate in the Middle East I think, though whether that has anything to do with it I have no idea. I'll never forget a performance of Bach's Chaconne by Itzhak Perlman at St John's, Smith Square. As he played, the perspiration appeared on his forehead and his face gradually underwent a transformation, with the lower lip protruding and the eyebrows coming down more and more sternly. By the end, he absolutely WAS J S Bach. It was very dramatic.

 

[Rachel Rugelach]

Yes, their unhappy history may have bred a certain self-sufficient attitude of mind. Perhaps that self-containment also helps explain their cultivation of music. There are so many Jewish musicians - especially perhaps violinists (Oistrakh bros, Milstein, Menuhin, Perlman....). The violin did originate in the Middle East I think, though whether that has anything to do with it I have no idea. I'll never forget a performance of Bach's Chaconne by Itzhak Perlman at St John's, Smith Square. As he played, the perspiration appeared on his forehead and his face gradually underwent a transformation, with the lower lip protruding and the eyebrows coming down more and more sternly. By the end, he absolutely WAS J S Bach. It was very dramatic.

A lot of great Jewish violinists, like Perlman, came from the Jewish tradition of klezmer -- a type of music played in Ashkenazic communities. The traditional instruments of klezmer bands were mainly the violin and clarinet, and the musical pieces range from the mournful to the celebratory. If you have ever seen the movie Fiddler on the Roof, the fiddler is a klezmer player (as well as a symbol of the difficult balance of the Jew's life in Eastern Europe, between playing his music/living his life -- and falling off the roof).

 

[exchemist]

A lot of great Jewish violinists, like Perlman, came from the Jewish tradition of klezmer -- a type of music played in Ashkenazic communities. The traditional instruments of klezmer bands were the violin and clarinet, and the musical pieces range from the mournful to the celebratory. If you have ever seen the movie Fiddler on the Roof, the fiddler is a klezmer player (as well as a symbol of the difficult balance of the Jew's life in Eastern Europe, between playing his music/living his life -- and falling off the roof).

Aha, so that's what it is. I knew there had to be something. Thanks for that.

 

[RestlessSoul]

I've heard both those theories about why Jews are over-represented in the sciences. Considering that we make up such a small percentage (0.2%) of the entire world's population, about 20% of Nobel Prize winners have been Jews.

I'm more inclined to go with the theory that this is because (as you wrote) "many Jewish communities encourage and foster pursuit of knowledge and intellect." There's an old Jewish joke that, when a Jewish child is born, his mother sees only three options for his future: 1. Doctor, 2. Lawyer, 3. Failure. I think that the "Tiger Moms" of the Asian community may be a reason why Asians exceed, as well.

I haven't yet seen Oppenheimer, and I may wait until it comes out on DVD. Movies about atomic bombs and their development kind make me queasy.

Oh, the movie definitely left me feeling queasy. The subject matter ensured that, but so did it's treatment by the director; there are some scenes depicting triumphalism after testing at Los Alamos, and after Japan's surrender, which were presented in a way which made them tough to watch. The moral implications of the project, and the internal conflict experienced by the participants, were dealt with subtly but powerfully, I thought.