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Opposition to Saudi Arabia's male guardianship system

GoodbyeDave

Well-Known Member
… many times I have said I have no religion and that doesn't compute through your skull I cannot help you.
Before you get on that Islam stuff I've already mentioned to several other members with comprehension issues (like yourself) I'm not Muslim.
If you have no religion, then why doesn't it say "Religion: None" at the top of your posts? I can hardly be expected to comprehend X when every post of yours states Y. I assumed that your acting as apologist for KSA was because you're a Muslim. Presumably it's just because you like irritating people. Fair enough — now I can ignore you.
 

Epic Beard Man

Bearded Philosopher
I see this place attracts a lot of people with comprehension issues. I guess one cannot defend something without being something.
 

SomeRandom

Still learning to be wise
Staff member
Premium Member
I see this place attracts a lot of people with comprehension issues. I guess one cannot defend something without being something.
I find that people tend to conflate the "devil's advocate" move as proof one adheres to the defended sentiments.
I see it happening all the time with people trying to argue against artistic expression.

I've had to defend reading Lolita a few times against Helen Lovejoy types. Because of course the book absolutely proves the author was a pedo supporter and was in no way an academic excercise.
And by reading the offending piece I was supporting pro pedophilia sentiments. Even though you're not really supposed to side with HH but whatever.:shrug:
 

Epic Beard Man

Bearded Philosopher
I find that people tend to conflate the "devil's advocate" move as proof one adheres to the defended sentiments.
I see it happening all the time with people trying to argue against artistic expression.

I've had to defend reading Lolita a few times against Helen Lovejoy types. Because of course the book absolutely proves the author was a pedo supporter and was in no way an academic excercise.
And by reading the offending piece I was supporting pro pedophilia sentiments. Even though you're not really supposed to side with HH but whatever.:shrug:


My main frustration is originally prior to my involvement with discussions I declared myself "agnostic-theist" and although I still share those sentiments I'm definitely a believer in a universal deity that being God, Allah, Ha'Shem, or whatever you want to call him in your personal language. I defend Muslims and Islam because I see enough badgering online and offline, now I've been considered Muslim. I've had to explain myself for an entire year. I'm no coward. If I believe in something I own up to it. I keep telling people I drink alcohol and have pre-marital sex both sins in Islam, but yet people don't believe me. Sure people in Islam do exactly that but I have no qualms declaring my religious faith which is the difference. I have my beef with the Abrahamic faiths but damn man people deserve to be called idiots if they cannot comprehend over and over how many times I've said what I said.

If what I wrote in my religious section confuses you, then perhaps it would be nice if people asked privately before I embarrass them or in his case, irritate them.
 

SomeRandom

Still learning to be wise
Staff member
Premium Member
My main frustration is originally prior to my involvement with discussions I declared myself "agnostic-theist" and although I still share those sentiments I'm definitely a believer in a universal deity that being God, Allah, Ha'Shem, or whatever you want to call him in your personal language. I defend Muslims and Islam because I see enough badgering online and offline, now I've been considered Muslim. I've had to explain myself for an entire year. I'm no coward. If I believe in something I own up to it. I keep telling people I drink alcohol and have pre-marital sex both sins in Islam, but yet people don't believe me. Sure people in Islam do exactly that but I have no qualms declaring my religious faith which is the difference. I have my beef with the Abrahamic faiths but damn man people deserve to be called idiots if they cannot comprehend over and over how many times I've said what I said.

If what I wrote in my religious section confuses you, then perhaps it would be nice if people asked privately before I embarrass them or in his case, irritate them.
Like I said, people often can't seem to comprehend playing devil's advocate without there being an underlying agenda.
I'm not sure why. Perhaps in a lot of debates we emotionally attach to our own positions so we assume the same is true for everyone.
Those who favour logical thinking are usually able to try to see the other side.
But especially with topics like race, religion and even politics, it's so emotionally charged that it becomes harder to believe the true intentions of someone on "the other side" even if they're neutral.
 

GoodbyeDave

Well-Known Member
…people deserve to be called idiots if they cannot comprehend over and over how many times I've said what I said.
Of course it might just be that people don't remember what you've said about yourself because they aren't really interested. This place is really supposed to be about ideas, not personalities — not that one would guess that from some of the posts!
 

The Emperor of Mankind

Currently the galaxy's spookiest paraplegic
My main frustration is originally prior to my involvement with discussions I declared myself "agnostic-theist" and although I still share those sentiments I'm definitely a believer in a universal deity that being God, Allah, Ha'Shem, or whatever you want to call him in your personal language. I defend Muslims and Islam because I see enough badgering online and offline, now I've been considered Muslim. I've had to explain myself for an entire year.

Right, but you give off that image constantly for a set amount of time. You've got a cryptic religious label "One that which the Creator made" that reads exactly like something a Muslim would describe Islam. If you use Islamic apologist arguments to defend the Quran and the religion, I don't think you've got much right to complain if people think you are Muslim.

It also doesn't help that you don't seem to play devil's advocate for any other religion.

Don't get me wrong, I know better than this;
 

Epic Beard Man

Bearded Philosopher
Right, but you give off that image constantly for a set amount of time.

This will be the last time I repeat myself. Any other response is just going to be met with hostility. No disrespect but I'm a 36 year-old man having to repeat myself to online strangers as if I owe these strangers an explanation. Look, I believe what I believe and I have a healthy amount of criticism for the Abrahamic faiths. All three, Islam included. I defend Muslims for several reasons one of which is I've had positive encounters with Muslims. Don't get me wrong, like any of people I've had negative encounters but more importantly my interactions lead me to be more knowledgeable about the (Islamic) faith. Second, my mother back during Malcolm X days used to be in the nation of Islam before she became Christian, so as a child I became familiar with the tenants of Islam even as a small child. Three, I wrote that in the religious part to be cryptic. If I were Muslim I would have clearly wrote Islam or Sunni or Shia. If anyone knows anything about me I've very direct-blunt if you know. God is the source of my being and although at times I struggle with understanding God the Creator, I say with conviction God is the source of my existence and my faith is only with God.

You've got a cryptic religious label "One that which the Creator made" that reads exactly like something a Muslim would describe Islam.

But why not a Jew? Why not a Sikh? Why not a Christian? Isn't God not the source of their faith?

If you use Islamic apologist arguments to defend the Quran and the religion, I don't think you've got much right to complain if people think you are Muslim.

"Islamic apologist arguments?"

There are a lot of people that are really badgering Islam on RF. I'm not talking about a simple academic critique, I'm talking about individual's that specifically seek out to badger Islam. One person who is tasked to "watch" discussion knows what I'm talking about. There are a lot of judgmental people here because of what they see on the news and a lot of people do armchair research to cherry pick verses for confirmation bias. That is not discussion that is "hey I dislike this religion because when I flip and scan through its pages I find X, Y, and Z. you know, how Islam spread and how Islam came to this land or that or how extremism developed needs to be looked at from a complex sociological lens. Like any popular religion even Buddhism where Japanese samurais were butchering each other even though Buddhism, a so-called peaceful faith was their mantra at the time, can and cannot influence people to kill each other. Looking at complex events and extraneous factors need to be considered when critiquing a faith, not watching CNN or Fox news.

People forget there is a lot of PO'd people in the world and the west had an influence in that. If you mix poverty, lack of education and hatred fueled by religion you will create an extremist. So I'm not apologizing just explaining how things are. I'm not a doctrinal type guy so I try not to get into the battle of the verses type discussion which is why I leave it up to Muslims to defend themselves in that regard but because there are few Muslims and considering that this website is not very hospitable to Muslims these Muslims do not sit here to defend their faith. so yes, I'll defend Muslims as if I were defending a disabled kid in the street. That is not to say Muslims have some sort of disability but when I see a bunch of grow a** people badgering Islam I'm coming for everyone. that's just my nature.

@The Emperor of Mankind
I'm sure if you was getting the crap beat out of you and I was coming down the sidewalk I'm sure you want some 6'0 235 black dude that takes no crap to help you right? that's my attitude here. That's how I feel when I see people talk about Islam. A bunch of uneducated armchair scholars.

If you use Islamic apologist arguments to defend the Quran and the religion, I don't think you've got much right to complain if people think you are Muslim.

I don't do much defending the doctrinal aspect because I don't get into verse by verse arguments. I may quote a verse here and there in respect to answering a question or in an attempt to make something clear. But when I clearly type "hey I like alcohol and pre-marital sex, clear sins in Islam" and I say this over and over and over yes I have an issue. Are there Muslims that drink alcohol and pre-marital sex? Yes. I know of one that owns a liquor store by my house. But as for my no I have never taken Shahada or anything of that sort. I still question religion itself but these are my own personal battles.

It also doesn't help that you don't seem to play devil's advocate for any other religion.

Don't get me wrong, I know better than this;

You really don't know anything about me. I suggest read this thread starting from the beginning.

"Violence Erupts Over Israeli Museum’s Sculpture of a Crucified Ronald McDonald"

No offense to you cause I'm sure you just now reading the thread so I'm giving you a pass on this one. but for future reference I'm done explaining myself again, and again, and again. Any future questions will be met with hostility because all I'm getting now is a bunch of nobodies who have no significance in my real life asking me stuff I've answered damn near ad infinitum. Just let me be and that's it. But it seems like I'm a 36 year-old man answering to a bunch of nobody strangers online about my religion.

If people don't like the answers then ya'll don't like it then leave it alone. No sense in continuing with it. I don't owe nobody here nothing just like you all don't owe me anything.
 
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Epic Beard Man

Bearded Philosopher
Of course it might just be that people don't remember what you've said about yourself because they aren't really interested. This place is really supposed to be about ideas, not personalities — not that one would guess that from some of the posts!

If its about ideas and not personality then why the **** are we discussing my ideas and personality? Something YOU STARTED! This thread isn't about EBM's religion this is about an Opposition to Saudi Arabia's male guardianship.
 

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
Isn't the North American continent not considered "western" via ancient Greek political ideology as a proxy?

Yes, but not my point. I consider the US part of the 'west' in simple terms. But it's not the entirety of it. I don't think you have experienced 'The West' (nor have I) but instead have lived within it, and experienced aspects of it.

There is a high level of diversity there, and gender relations in a country like Sweden are not the same as in the States.


Isn't there something written in the United States where it says "all men are created equal?" Wasn't this written in 1776 by Thomas Jefferson, a man, who while writing that all men are created equal owned thousands of slaves at the same time?

You can take the quote out of context, or use a modern lens to pass judgement on it. You could note that he said 'man' rather than people, for example. What does that have to do with how women are treated in Saudi Arabia?

Western civilization is better or people within the west have the audacity to question the morality of others in different countries?

I would hope they have the audacity to question morality in both their own countries AND others.

I call the west hypocritical.

You're broad-brushing. 'The West' is diverse, and opinion within any one country is also diverse. So sure, taken as a whole the West is hypocritical. How could you possible get consistent behaviour and thought across such diversity?

Alas, and I say this again I still live in a western society where I have not felt completely human nor do I feel completely American. Until I exist in a society where I am addressed as a human and not based on my external appearance I will continue to call B.S. to this so-called democracy.

Which is at once both your right, and nothing to do with the issue at hand.
But, if you really need to see this through a lens related to your own personal experience, consider your ability to call B.S. and contrast it with the ability of women in Saudi Arabia to do the same.


We in the states deal with institutional racism and unfair sentencing in the judicial system yet we have the audacity to talk about how women are treated?

I'm not American. But sure. We should talk about how women are treated. Shouldn't we?

Yet we continue to devalue our women by putting them on poster boards or shaming them for gaining too much weight! How dare you try to come at me for criticizing the obvious hypocrisy....

It's a tangent though. There can at once be validity in criticizing treatment of women in Saudi Arabia AND a level of hypocrisy since we live in a glass house. They are not mutually exclusive. So, sure...I dare.

Of course I don't say this in an argumentative tone.

I like your passion and interest. Discussion boards are for communicating, so from my point of view, go for it.
 
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