Order of the Books

[Angelical]

Oy veh!

You disagree that Job would be a Persian Jew? I think it’s pretty hard to argue against. Like Ezra was a Persian Jew kind of, but Job, more Persian and I’m not sure any Lineage claims Job outside of Persia, Ester is in Persia. I would want to know what you think places Job outside of Persian Lineages and into like Bloodline of David or something. Job is a Persian Jew.

 

[shunyadragon]

In this Video, the way he Describes like the Scholars’ Theory of Genesis is that it is a Patchwork, Genesis comes from Gilgamesh, and Hittite Myth, and a few others. And if we look at how Jewish Tradition worked there was no Writing, Moses was taking something that was all Spoken, Ancient Stories passed down and then Moses uses them to identify the Tribes of Judah and the Nations after the Flood. To say that Moses matches up with other Stories doesn’t make them wrong. But this Video gets into a bunch of Details.

But it is very likely Moses was more than one person, Moses is Loki, Merlin, Varun, Neptune. He wrote a Document like Thomas Jefferson who also had help.

This talk is extremely biased an ancient understanding of Genesis without science.and contains a lot of historic and linguistic misinformation considering the speaker is well educated down right lies.

First BIG LIE is the libraries he refers to are not Hebrew they Ugarit/Canaanite libraries containing also Pheonition tablets and older more primitive tablets.

 

[Angelical]

This talk is extremely biased an ancient understanding of Genesis without science.and contains a lot of historic and linguistic misinformation considering the speaker is well educated down right lies.

First BIG LIE is the libraries he refers to are not Hebrew they Ugarit/Canaanite libraries containing also Pheonition tablets and older more primitive tablets.

I’m not saying he’s right, I’m just saying he’s getting into everything. And yeah, I would agree. There are also things that happen with Moses, that maybe aren’t exactly the same as the Egyptian Hieroglyphic carvings. The Egyptians say the Sea People were their Slaves, we can places them in Fayum. Moses and the Hebrews live in Gershon I think it is called. Moses’ Mom has been discovered in Fayum, Ramses Mistress. The Egyptian History says there was a Servant Strike, not a Slave Revolt, whereby the Servant of Egypt may have left as is described by Moses, and there were something like Plagues as the Society Collapsed without Servants. You could say Frogs coming out of the Nile and things.

But then if we look at everything after Moses. There are the Angels helping the Jews, Gideon in Judge 6 and 7 for example, and the Judge we all know, Samson. After Moses things happen where other People do kind of interact with them both based on the Bible, and the Angels coming in, whatever anyone who wants to say those are just regular Humans with no Invisible Help. Whoever wants to say this is all just regular People helping the Jews. You still have to accept that they helped put together Moses’ writings, they sent the Jews into Canaan and helped them after, they were at the center of the Tabernacle.

But this is higher than Human activity, even when Moses is not 1 person.

 

[shunyadragon]

I’m not saying he’s right, I’m just saying he’s getting into everything. And yeah, I would agree. There are also things that happen with Moses, that maybe aren’t exactly the same as the Egyptian Hieroglyphic carvings. The Egyptians say the Sea People were their Slaves, we can places them in Fayum. Moses and the Hebrews live in Gershon I think it is called. Moses’ Mom has been discovered in Fayum, Ramses Mistress. The Egyptian History says there was a Servant Strike, not a Slave Revolt, whereby the Servant of Egypt may have left as is described by Moses, and there were something like Plagues as the Society Collapsed without Servants. You could say Frogs coming out of the Nile and things.

But then if we look at everything after Moses. There are the Angels helping the Jews, Gideon in Judge 6 and 7 for example, and the Judge we all know, Samson. After Moses things happen where other People do kind of interact with them both based on the Bible, and the Angels coming in, whatever anyone who wants to say those are just regular Humans with no Invisible Help. Whoever wants to say this is all just regular People helping the Jews. You still have to accept that they helped put together Moses’ writings, they sent the Jews into Canaan and helped them after, they were at the center of the Tabernacle.

But this is higher than Human activity, even when Moses is not 1 person.

You are assuming too much of Exodus is accurate involving Moses, slave revolt and the exodus from Egypt. The actual event of the exodus from Egypt or the existence of Moses lack evidence. This reference goes into more detail of the evidence problems for Exodus.

Man versus myth: does it matter if the Moses story is based on fact?

As Ridley Scott prepares to release another blockbuster based on the exodus, the row has reignited the debate over whether Judaism’s historical saviour actually existed

www.theguardian.com

The actual evidence concludes there never was a mass migration. The archaeological evidence demonstrates that the Hebrews are predominately from Palestine and remained there. Yes, some slaves of the various tribes including Hebrews were slaves in Egypt and possibly left or escaped. There arevague analigious stories that indirectly relate to the story in Exodus, but not remotely related to Exodus.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

You ? I think it’s pretty hard to argue against.

You "think" informed by what scholarship? With what commentaries on Job are you familiar?

I do not "disagree that Job would be a Persian Jew." I disagree that there is a consensus to that effect.

So, for example, the Jewish Study Bible simple notes:

... it is generally agreed that the book of Job was composed sometime during the period from the mid-6th century to the mid-4th century, the Persian (Achaemenid) period (539-332 BCE). ... As with the authors of most biblical books, the author of Job is anonymous and unknown.​

The Book of Job Annotated and Explained agrees that it was likely written during the Persian period and then adds:

But any attempt to specify a date for the writing of Job is guesswork and can only be approximate. As with the date of composition, so the place where Job was written is unknown and probably unknowable. ... It is at least possible that the author lived outside of Israel or had spent time elsewhere, but nothing is known of the writer's identity and the text gives no clues.​

Robert Alter generally concurs, writing in the Introduction to Job found in volume three of his outstanding Translation and Commentary:

As is the case of so many other biblical books, we know nothing about the author of Job -- not his class background and certainly not any of his biographical details and not even with any certainty the time when he wrote.​

To be honest, I find your casual certainty to be dismissive at best.

 

[Angelical]

You are assuming too much of Exodus is accurate involving Moses, slave revolt and the exodus from Egypt. The actual event of the exodus from Egypt or the existence of Moses lack evidence. This reference goes into more detail of the evidence problems for Exodus.

Man versus myth: does it matter if the Moses story is based on fact?

As Ridley Scott prepares to release another blockbuster based on the exodus, the row has reignited the debate over whether Judaism’s historical saviour actually existed

www.theguardian.com

The actual evidence concludes there never was a mass migration. The archaeological evidence demonstrates that the Hebrews are predominately from Palestine and remained there. Yes, some slaves of the various tribes including Hebrews were slaves in Egypt and possibly left or escaped. There arevague analigious stories that indirectly relate to the story in Exodus, but not remotely related to Exodus.

I’m not assuming anything. I got what I just told you from the Walls of Egypt and recent Archaeology of Fayum. It’s all real.

 

[Angelical]

You "think" informed by what scholarship? With what commentaries on Job are you familiar?

I do not "disagree that Job would be a Persian Jew." I disagree that there is a consensus to that effect.

So, for example, the Jewish Study Bible simple notes:

... it is generally agreed that the book of Job was composed sometime during the period from the mid-6th century to the mid-4th century, the Persian (Achaemenid) period (539-332 BCE). ... As with the authors of most biblical books, the author of Job is anonymous and unknown.​

The Book of Job Annotated and Explained agrees that it was likely written during the Persian period and then adds:

But any attempt to specify a date for the writing of Job is guesswork and can only be approximate. As with the date of composition, so the place where Job was written is unknown and probably unknowable. ... It is at least possible that the author lived outside of Israel or had spent time elsewhere, but nothing is known of the writer's identity and the text gives no clues.​

Robert Alter generally concurs, writing in the Introduction to Job found in volume three of his outstanding Translation and Commentary:

As is the case of so many other biblical books, we know nothing about the author of Job -- not his class background and certainly not any of his biographical details and not even with any certainty the time when he wrote.​

To be honest, I find your casual certainty to be dismissive at best.

Ok, and so you don’t find it strange, when viewed in context of the Organization of the Text whereby Daniel comes Later, Proverbs and Psalms come later, you don’t think it is strange that Job has no Lineage connecting him to the Jewish State, though he comes right after Kings and Chronicles, but Directly after Ester who is in Susa, Wife of the King of Persia, and at the end of Ester leading up to Job the Kingdom has a mass Conversion to Judaism. The Persian Empire Converts to Judaism basically at the end of Ester.

Then Job happens.

And you think it is unreasonable, when I put together all of this information about the Organization of the Books, for me to say he is likely a Persian Jew, just based on those facts alone…

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

And you think it is unreasonable, when I put together all of this information about the Organization of the Books, for me to say he is likely a Persian Jew, just based on those facts alone…

I think it arrogant. I also think it telling (yet predictable) that you chose to sidestep my questions.

 

[Sand Dancer]

The Bible should be organized by date the books were written but it is not.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

... and so you don’t find it strange, when viewed in context of the Organization of the Text whereby Daniel comes Later, Proverbs and Psalms come later, ... [emphasis added - JS]

From Rabbi Wikipedia:

Book order​

The Jewish textual tradition never finalized the order of the books in Ketuvim. The Talmud gives their order as Ruth, Psalms, Job, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, Song of Songs, Lamentations, Daniel, Scroll of Esther, Ezra, Chronicles.[31] This order is roughly chronological (assuming traditional authorship).​

​

In Tiberian Masoretic codices (including the Aleppo Codex and the Leningrad Codex), and often in old Spanish manuscripts as well, the order is Chronicles, Psalms, Job, Proverbs, Ruth, Song of Songs, Ecclesiastes, Lamentations, Esther, Daniel, Ezra.[32] This order is more thematic (e.g. the megillot are listed together).​

Whatever ...

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

The Bible should be organized by date the books were written but it is not.

Where might one find such dates? How might one vet such dates?

 

[Angelical]

The Bible should be organized by date the books were written but it is not.

I got into this myself. The Book of Daniel comes after all the Persian stuff, and he is under a Babylonian King. That’s kind of the whole point I’m saying we can look to to see the Organization and declare Job Persian.

I think it arrogant. I also think it telling (yet predictable) that you chose to sidestep my questions.

I must have missed it, I saw a bunch of stuff where you proved no one knows who Job is or where he came from.

If you want to get into this we can go further. David fought Goliath, a Philistine, so the Angels came to help the Judges and Israelis with the Philistines, the Midianites and others. This is also a group that was able to Contend with Egypt, the Angels that is. So the Angels come to Gideon and tell him to take down the Ashera Pole, and create an Alter to Sacrifice. Gideon does and they name him Jerub-Baal or “Let Baal contend with him”. Also, David went somewhere and a place was named Baal-perazim, or “the Lord bursts forth like Flood Water”. And we see that maybe with Gideon his name Jerub-Baal is fulfilled.

If we look at King David, King Arthur, Hercules, Melqart, Thor, these are all something that represent the appearance of the Royal Family, and the Monarchy, dominating over the Giants. So David and Goliath is the same story everyone is telling about what they did in those days too.

So now, the Giants. If we look to the Flood, either Noah with the Giants from Azazel in Enoch, Genesis 6 “The Nephilim were around in those days, but also today… the Heroes of Old and Warriors of Renown”. When “The Sons of God took Wives from amongst the Daughters of Man”. Then the Flood, Enoch 10, Genesis 7 then Nimrod son of Cush. Hiram and Goliath, Hiram a Freemason, Hiram Abiff the Master Mason. The Giants continued after the Flood, Loki a Half Giant, Moses raised in the Palace. But the Royal Families won out in each Region, the Monarchy was the Rule. And the Phaiakians, the Establishers, Moses and Loki, but Merlin, Neptune, come from Apollo. Angels, from the Giants.

So then after the Judges, Ester and that’s after Daniel too. Now in Job the Angels are like Zoroastrian or Canaanite Gods. Now the Angels went from talking to Gideon, to killing Sennacherib’s 180,000 mysteriously. To now almost allegories for something else, like Archangels and not coming in to talk and things. So we can see that Job is coming from a place different than the Israelis who were worried about Raiders and asking for a King, or the Persian Ruled Israelis.

Job is a Persian Jew.

 

[Angelical]

From Rabbi Wikipedia:

Book order​

The Jewish textual tradition never finalized the order of the books in Ketuvim. The Talmud gives their order as Ruth, Psalms, Job, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, Song of Songs, Lamentations, Daniel, Scroll of Esther, Ezra, Chronicles.[31] This order is roughly chronological (assuming traditional authorship).​

​

In Tiberian Masoretic codices (including the Aleppo Codex and the Leningrad Codex), and often in old Spanish manuscripts as well, the order is Chronicles, Psalms, Job, Proverbs, Ruth, Song of Songs, Ecclesiastes, Lamentations, Esther, Daniel, Ezra.[32] This order is more thematic (e.g. the megillot are listed together).​

Whatever ...

Song of Song, Lamentations and Daniel do go together like the Talmud, that’s my Point.

Psalms, Proverb and Job though are like Math Class. They go together too in that way. But the Christian Bibles separate them and King James, or someone, knew what we can now say about Job.

 

[Angelical]

So what it seems like happened between Ketuvim Talmud from what you’re saying, and Tiberian Scrolls, which likely all had things like the Nicene Creed and everything Christians have. Math Class in the Bible got pushed back.

The Bible is out of Order partially for a reason and Daniel comes after Persia to remind everyone of God’s Power.

When we look at Chronicles first or last as is displayed by the Jewish line up. And Ester after Psalms, Proverbs and Job. Those 3 Books that I am calling Math Class, these are something the Ancient Jewish Student would Study over and over, particularly the Tribal groups and everything as much as they could through Babylon and Persia after David and Solomon died. And it seems Job went up there with David and Solomon in terms of Poetic Voice and Teachings about God. To put those 3 Math Class Texts near the front all together is to give the Jew under Persian Rule, or Rome, or whoever, the Math Class and things they need. And in Hebrew and things it probably has extra secrets, those are the places to look for Numerology and things. So I’m not surprised those are together.

But then as Time moved on it changed, and Math Class got pushed Back, and Ester and Job are near each other for different reasons than the reason the Math Class 3 all used to be up front together.

 

[3rdAngel]

Goodness why are you guys even having this discussion? All it seems to be saying to me if I am being honest is conspiracy theories, no faith in Gods Word and no trust that God is in control of His Word. Smells of the worldly wise, unbelief and sin to me. (Romans 14:23; John 3:36; Ephesians 2:8-9).

 

[Shaul]

Why did you ignore the book of Leviticus?

Anyways. The book order of the TaNaKH is as follows:

Torah (Chumash):
Genesis (בְּרֵאשִׁית)
Exodus (שְׁמֹות)
Leviticus (וַיִּקְרָא)
Number (בְּמִדְבַּר)
Deuteronomy (דְּבָרִים)

Nevi'im (prophets):
Joshua (יְהוֹשֻעַ)
Judges (שֹׁפְטִים)
Samuel (שְׁמוּאֵל)
Kings (מְלָכִים)
Isaiah (יְשַׁעְיָהוּ)
Jeremiah (יִרְמְיָהוּ)
Ezekiel (יְחֶזְקֵאל)
Hosea (הוֹשֵׁעַ)
Joel (יוֹאֵל)
Amos (עָמוֹס)
Obadiah (עֹבַדְיָה)
Jonah (יוֹנָה)
Micah (מִיכָה)
Nahum (נַחוּם)
Habakkuk (חֲבַקּוּק)
Zephaniah (צְפַנְיָה)
Haggai (חַגַּי)
Zechariah (זְכַרְיָה)
Malachi (מַלְאָכִי)

Ketuvim (writings):
Psalms (תְהִלִּים)
Proverbs (מִשְׁלֵי)
Job (אִיּוֹב)
Song of Songs (שִׁיר הַשִּׁירִים)
Ruth (רוּת)
Lamentations (אֵיכָה)
Ecclesiastes (קֹהֶלֶת)
Esther (אֶסְתֵר)
Daniel (דָּנִיֵּאל)
Ezra(/Nehemiah) (עֶזְרָא)
Chronicles (דִּבְרֵי הַיָּמִים)

The order is mostly chronological within each group. The books of the Torah are chronological. The Prophets are subdivided into the former prophets (Joshua, Judges, Samuel and Kings), the later prophets (Isaiah, Jeremiah and Ezekiel) and the remaining "minor" prophets. Each of these subgroups are in chronological order. The Ketuvim are also divided into subgroups of the Poetic books (Psalms, Proverbs and Job) and the five Megillot (Song of Songs, Ruth, Lamentations and Ecclesiastes and Esther). Daniel Ezra/Nehemiah and Chronicles are "other" books. The former prophets are in chronological order. Each subgroup of the Later and Minor prophets are in chronological order within themselves but not across the two subgroups. The Megillot are NOT in chronological order but are in the order they are read on their respective times within the liturgical calendar in Judaism. The "other" books are in chronological order except for Chronicles which spans all of time up to the return from the Babylonian exile.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I got into this myself. The Book of Daniel comes after all the Persian stuff, and he is under a Babylonian King. That’s kind of the whole point I’m saying we can look to to see the Organization and declare Job Persian.

I must have missed it, I saw a bunch of stuff where you proved no one knows who Job is or where he came from.

If you want to get into this we can go further. ...

No thanks. The ignore list is more than adequate.

 

[Harel13]

Oy veh!

There's a similar opinion in the Bavli, that Iyov was someone who came from the Babylonian Exile (which included also Persia and other places). See here.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

There's a similar opinion in the Bavli, that Iyov was someone who came from the Babylonian Exile (which included also Persia and other places). See here.

There appears to be a wealth of opinion and a paucity of certainty. My sense is that the text is likely post-exilic, and I take no issue with my references in post #25 (including the second one).

Just thought I'd add:

The Journal of Biblical Literature (Vol. 25; No 2; 1906) carries a long but interesting article titled: A Babylonian Parallel to the Story of Job.​

 

[Angelical]

Why did you ignore the book of Leviticus?

Anyways. The book order of the TaNaKH is as follows:

Torah (Chumash):
Genesis (בְּרֵאשִׁית)
Exodus (שְׁמֹות)
Leviticus (וַיִּקְרָא)
Number (בְּמִדְבַּר)
Deuteronomy (דְּבָרִים)

Nevi'im (prophets):
Joshua (יְהוֹשֻעַ)
Judges (שֹׁפְטִים)
Samuel (שְׁמוּאֵל)
Kings (מְלָכִים)
Isaiah (יְשַׁעְיָהוּ)
Jeremiah (יִרְמְיָהוּ)
Ezekiel (יְחֶזְקֵאל)
Hosea (הוֹשֵׁעַ)
Joel (יוֹאֵל)
Amos (עָמוֹס)
Obadiah (עֹבַדְיָה)
Jonah (יוֹנָה)
Micah (מִיכָה)
Nahum (נַחוּם)
Habakkuk (חֲבַקּוּק)
Zephaniah (צְפַנְיָה)
Haggai (חַגַּי)
Zechariah (זְכַרְיָה)
Malachi (מַלְאָכִי)

Ketuvim (writings):
Psalms (תְהִלִּים)
Proverbs (מִשְׁלֵי)
Job (אִיּוֹב)
Song of Songs (שִׁיר הַשִּׁירִים)
Ruth (רוּת)
Lamentations (אֵיכָה)
Ecclesiastes (קֹהֶלֶת)
Esther (אֶסְתֵר)
Daniel (דָּנִיֵּאל)
Ezra(/Nehemiah) (עֶזְרָא)
Chronicles (דִּבְרֵי הַיָּמִים)

The order is mostly chronological within each group. The books of the Torah are chronological. The Prophets are subdivided into the former prophets (Joshua, Judges, Samuel and Kings), the later prophets (Isaiah, Jeremiah and Ezekiel) and the remaining "minor" prophets. Each of these subgroups are in chronological order. The Ketuvim are also divided into subgroups of the Poetic books (Psalms, Proverbs and Job) and the five Megillot (Song of Songs, Ruth, Lamentations and Ecclesiastes and Esther). Daniel Ezra/Nehemiah and Chronicles are "other" books. The former prophets are in chronological order. Each subgroup of the Later and Minor prophets are in chronological order within themselves but not across the two subgroups. The Megillot are NOT in chronological order but are in the order they are read on their respective times within the liturgical calendar in Judaism. The "other" books are in chronological order except for Chronicles which spans all of time up to the return from the Babylonian exile.

This all lines up exactly with what I say. Psalms, Proverbs and Job are together because they are like Math Class.

And Job wasn’t like some guy under David, it was someone later under a Persian King and not part of the Lineages of Chronicles. Job is not part of the Tribes.