• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Order versus Chaos

sayak83

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
dfnj said:
You and I will never agree on anything. We simply have different world views. I don't believe in blanket statements about math being a perfect representation of reality. Sure if you have God-like powers to make every possible measurement this way and that it can be represented with mathematics. I'm not denying that which is what you are arguing. What I am saying just because you can imagine everything in nature is mathematical doesn't me on a realistic level you can make every measurement. My original claim is the order we find in nature occurs under controlled conditions. I was wondering if in reality with all the external variables changing results, if we see more exceptions to the laws of physic than compliance. In reality, chaos is the more common experience. Why does this matter? Because people claim this so called order we see in the Universe is evidence for God. I don't believe there is such an order. The Universe is a messy place and it is not practical to take enough measurements and to do enough math to really capture what is going on. Unless of course, you have a very refined context with controlled experiments. To me this is like parallel lines. They are perfect in math. But do not exist in reality. Your idea nature can be perfectly represented with math only occurs in your imagination like parallel lines only occurs in math.

I really don't want to argue with you. I've seen from your past posts you believe your science is truth above all else. I'm not going to argue F = ma is not true with you. You are completely missing my point if you think I am saying F = ma is not true. I really don't care to hear your point of view. I just don't care to hear it because I know how close minded you are from your previous posts in other threads you participated in. You think you are always "right". I get it. You are always right.
Click to expand...
I have never observed a violation of the laws of physics. You have? Where?
 
blü 2

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
dfnj said:
You always have to have the last word.
Click to expand...
I was hoping for your reasoned reply.

But if you don't wish to offer a reasoned reply, and you'd still like the last word, feel free to take it.
 
N

Neb

Active Member
dfnj said:
People who have the deepest faith in science often claim there is a natural order to the way nature behaves? I've been wondering if seeing this order in nature is some kind of pareidolia (seeing images in clouds). If we held the belief the Universe is nothing but chaos and nature's primary behavior is disorder would be we see or experience the evidence in equal measure? Are the laws of physics our primary experience or is there an equal amount of violations to the laws of physics?

I've heard many religious type people claim the natural order of nature, the way it can be represented with mathematics, and the idea of a clockwork Universe is evidence for the existence of God. Many people claim early scientists were all entrenched with religious beliefs as supporting evidence for their conjectures.

It seems to me what makes the Universe so great and interesting is the chaos. The idea of the Universe being ordered is like playing an Atari VCS video game. The digital is very boring because it repeats itself often. I have never experience reality ever repeating itself. In the movie the Matrix they have déjà vu moment.


I have never experience this in reality. Reality to me is analog, never repeats, just as disordered as it is ordered which is why reality is so interesting and fun to be in!

The part about what makes music "compelling" is interesting.
Click to expand...
So the question is, is life a type of order and complexity or a disorder and chaos
 
T

tayla

My dog's name is Tayla
dfnj said:
People who have the deepest faith in science often claim there is a natural order to the way nature behaves? I've been wondering if seeing this order in nature is some kind of pareidolia (seeing images in clouds).
Click to expand...
Mathematics is orderly. Science is weirdly explainable by mathematics. Therefore, the universe is orderly.

Also, the mind imposes order upon its perceptions. In my view, the mind resides in the spiritual realm as does mathematics.
 
exchemist

exchemist

Veteran Member
dfnj said:
Airplanes crash all the time. If it moves it breaks. Yes, airplanes take off and land. But you seem to be ignoring the chaos because it is like experimental error with your way of thinking.

I just don't live in your happy World of hard determinism.
Click to expand...
Did you take in, at all, the statistics I gave you about aircraft safety? Apparently not, so I'll repeat it for you: you would need to take a flight every day for 10,000 years to have a 50% probability of being in an air crash.

And did you even read my post? The bit about disorder? No? Of course I'm not ignoring chaos! There is even a mathematics of chaos theory. Did you know that?

Of course there is chaos: random, or pseudo-random, or unpredicted, events take place all the time. But your original contention, which I took issue with, was quite different. You said the laws of physics were regularly broken. That is untrue, as the examples I gave you illustrated.

Look, if you want to have a discussion, I am happy to have one with you. But if so, I suggest you make more effort to respond to the points people actually raise. At the moment, it looks as if you have a bigoted notion of how people like me with a science education think, and you are not interested in discussion.
 
Twilight Hue

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
icehorse said:
It strikes me that the universe is mostly in a state of chaos and that somehow it occasionally manages to create order. All life on this planet is an example of an amazing degree of order. It remains to be seen how frequently throughout the universe life is created out of order. But it's fun trying to figure it out!
Click to expand...
I favor the term stability over order. Even the most stable things will become unstable and vice versa.

It seems to be more of a question of what came first? The chicken or the egg?
 
P

Ponder This

Well-Known Member
dfnj said:
People who have the deepest faith in science often claim there is a natural order to the way nature behaves? I've been wondering if seeing this order in nature is some kind of pareidolia (seeing images in clouds). If we held the belief the Universe is nothing but chaos and nature's primary behavior is disorder would be we see or experience the evidence in equal measure? Are the laws of physics our primary experience or is there an equal amount of violations to the laws of physics?

I've heard many religious type people claim the natural order of nature, the way it can be represented with mathematics, and the idea of a clockwork Universe is evidence for the existence of God. Many people claim early scientists were all entrenched with religious beliefs as supporting evidence for their conjectures.

It seems to me what makes the Universe so great and interesting is the chaos. The idea of the Universe being ordered is like playing an Atari VCS video game. The digital is very boring because it repeats itself often. I have never experience reality ever repeating itself. In the movie the Matrix they have déjà vu moment.


I have never experience this in reality. Reality to me is analog, never repeats, just as disordered as it is ordered which is why reality is so interesting and fun to be in!

The part about what makes music "compelling" is interesting.
Click to expand...

Maybe the ideas of 'order' and 'chaos' are used by us in exploring reality without necessarily either being an ultimate truth.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top