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Organized Religion Necessary or Not?

The Burgundy Nun

New Member
Hello all!
I have come across many Christians who have a problem with "organized religion." As many of you may know, in the Catholic Faith (as well as in the Orthodox) there is both an hierarchical organization of bishops and, most importantly, an organized form of worship known as the Mass or the Liturgy. I myself am Catholic and am also very familiar with the Orthodox/Eastern Catholic Traditions. However, I am less familiar with the Protestant or Non-Denominational view on "organized religion" particularly in worship. For those who are not Catholic or Orthodox, I would be very interested in hearing your comments and thoughts about "organized religion" as you understand it. Please voice all concerns, strong opinions, etc.!
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
To me organized religion with its theology and ceremonies is not necessary. It's helpful to some and that's great for those folk. There is a growing number of people who don't value or need that in their lives whether they be atheist or spiritually inclined. And there are those who follow what I would call disorganized religion, Hinduism, because it contains a vast set of choices about belief and practice.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
Hello all!
I have come across many Christians who have a problem with "organized religion." As many of you may know, in the Catholic Faith (as well as in the Orthodox) there is both an hierarchical organization of bishops and, most importantly, an organized form of worship known as the Mass or the Liturgy. I myself am Catholic and am also very familiar with the Orthodox/Eastern Catholic Traditions. However, I am less familiar with the Protestant or Non-Denominational view on "organized religion" particularly in worship. For those who are not Catholic or Orthodox, I would be very interested in hearing your comments and thoughts about "organized religion" as you understand it. Please voice all concerns, strong opinions, etc.!
Humans are a collective, cooperative species. And both of these aspects of our nature require some form of organization to be effective, usually hierarchical. So far all our attempts at setting up an ideal form of human organization have been less than ideal, and they have all failed us, eventually. Usually by falling into the systemic abuse of the masses by the 'elites' at the top of the hierarchy. And religious organizations are no exception.

I don't think this means we should stop trying, however, because clearly, anarchy is NOT a viable solution, either. So I don't think the question we ought to be asking is should religious organizations exist, I think the real question is how can we make them function better and do so for the greatest number of people? But sadly, I do not see this as being held as a priority among the world's religious organizations. Mostly, they are only concerned with maintaining whatever control they have over however many people they have it. And it's for ths reason that I do not personally participate in or support any organized religious groups or institutions.
 

SalixIncendium

अहं ब्रह्मास्मि
Staff member
Premium Member
It depends on the person. I would imagine those who belong to an organized religion find it necessary, while I'm perfectly happy being in a "disorganized" religion.
 

rocala

Well-Known Member
I doubt much of its use value. I think that when any organisation becomes large enough, be it religious or political, an aspect reminiscent of a popular front creeps in. In other words lots of different and sometimes contradictory beliefs. This can be useful in times of change or struggle but in every day life it just makes a mockery of it.

For religious purposes, I believe that groups like the Universalists and the Quakers are far more sensible.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Hello all!
I have come across many Christians who have a problem with "organized religion." As many of you may know, in the Catholic Faith (as well as in the Orthodox) there is both an hierarchical organization of bishops and, most importantly, an organized form of worship known as the Mass or the Liturgy. I myself am Catholic and am also very familiar with the Orthodox/Eastern Catholic Traditions. However, I am less familiar with the Protestant or Non-Denominational view on "organized religion" particularly in worship. For those who are not Catholic or Orthodox, I would be very interested in hearing your comments and thoughts about "organized religion" as you understand it. Please voice all concerns, strong opinions, etc.!

Here in Brazil it can be hard to tell who considers himself a member of an organized religion, particularly Catholicism or, to a lesser degree, Evangelical Christianity . People are simply presumed to be or at least consider themselves Christians of some form until and unless some indication to the contrary is given.

But just as frequent, if not more, is some degree of acceptance that it can be unconfortable and even dangerous to trust the judgment and behavior of specific churches, priests and Christian leaders. While belief in the divinity of Jesus is generally expected of random people in everyday situations, sympathy for random churches and priests really isn't. Even the Bible isn't necessarily well valued and well trusted by peple that think of themselves as Christians. There is a whole spectrum of degrees of identification and acceptance with various aspects of Christianity's presence in our communities.

It is also considered bad form to directly ask about those matters without being previously invited to. Christianity here is often perceived as a default state of sorts, something that we should expect to be present and expressed in most aspects of everyday life. So much so that I am honestly not sure on whether most people who identify as Christians would or do consider themselves to also be religious people. There is a degree of ambiguity that often seems to be intentional.

Far as I can see, most people here (Christians or otherwise) end up choosing to simply be pragmatic and avoid unnecessary grief by not discussing belief and trust matters very often nor very deeply in most situations. Most Brazilians will be in some combination Catholic, Protestant/Evangelical Christians, Kardecist Spiritists (who very often perceive themselves as Christians as well) and have some peripheral awareness of Orthodox Christianity and other, non-Christian creeds and beliefs. There is also a considerable but hard to measure contingent of the Brazilian creeds of African origin, Umbanda and Candomblé.

Except perhaps for the Adherents of Umbanda and Candomblé, it is not all that usual for Brazilians to insist on having and displaying very clear, stable and defined religious identities. Advice to make acquaintance of specific churches and creeds is presented fairly often and fairly casually, almost as health care information in some situations. Strong identification with a specific creed or church may even be perceived as slightly exotic here.

It is also fairly common to find people that consider themselves "spiritual but not religious" and present that statement as enough clarification. What that means exactly is really not all that clear, but it is reasonable to say that many or most people who do are in effect saying that they trust the existence and judgment of God (presumably some form of the Christian understanding of same) but are not interested in having particularly clear or deep ties with any group of organized religion.

Much of the time that is a pragmatic stance, as likely as not to be taken mainly to discourage talk about religions, which can indeed be passionate and difficult here. Perhaps even more frequent is the situation of wanting to keep good relations with at least one Christian denomination while also not creating expectations of regular observance. How devout the people of that group are will of course vary considerably. Some think of themselves as Christians more strongly and more often than others.

To the best of my understanding, there is a strong correspondence between this group and that of the Christians who dislike organized religion - at least here in Brazil.


--------

Edited to add: maybe I misunderstood you, but it looks like you consider Protestant Christianity to be one and the same thing as Non-Denominational Christianity.

There is some overlap in practice, but no, they are not really the same thing, nor particularly compatible with each other.
 
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LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Thank you for your replies! Would you say that organized religion might actually impede a person's spirituality, by putting limits on him/her?
Probably. But another way to look into it is that people who have significant spiritual callings will usually be somewhat bold, enough so to rebel against those limits when the need presents itself.
 

Eddi

Christianity, Taoism, and Humanism
Premium Member
Hello all!
I have come across many Christians who have a problem with "organized religion." As many of you may know, in the Catholic Faith (as well as in the Orthodox) there is both an hierarchical organization of bishops and, most importantly, an organized form of worship known as the Mass or the Liturgy. I myself am Catholic and am also very familiar with the Orthodox/Eastern Catholic Traditions. However, I am less familiar with the Protestant or Non-Denominational view on "organized religion" particularly in worship. For those who are not Catholic or Orthodox, I would be very interested in hearing your comments and thoughts about "organized religion" as you understand it. Please voice all concerns, strong opinions, etc.!
Just to clarify, is it only those who are not Catholic or Orthodox but are Christians that you are hoping to hear from?
 

The Burgundy Nun

New Member
Just to clarify, is it only those who are not Catholic or Orthodox but are Christians that you are hoping to hear from?
Yes, mainly I wish to hear from Christians that are not Orthodox or Catholic. However, I wouldn't mind hearing from a non-Christian either. (Also, if there is a Catholic or adherent to Orthodoxy here who thinks that their religion should not be organized as it is, then I would like to hear from them, as well.) Basically, I just want to know what others think that are opposed or suspicious of organized religion and what their reasons are for this.
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
Thank you for your replies! Would you say that organized religion might actually impede a person's spirituality, by putting limits on him/her?

Yes. The early history of the Puritans in New England illustrate what happened when someone went against the beliefs of the majority. For example Anne Hutchinson being forced to leave because the clergy convicted her of heresy.

Two examples from Catholicism. The Saint Who Didn’t Fit In is one example.

I don't know enough about the history of St. Francis of Assisi to be sure that the Catholic church was really an impediment but from what I know he mostly did not pay attention to the Church hierarchy. His "perfect joy" comments about a "porter" refusing him entry are to me an example of that to me: Perfect joy according to Saint Francis of Assisi

NB: I'm not a Christian but I've learned about Christianity and other religions over the years.
 

The Burgundy Nun

New Member
Here in Brazil it can be hard to tell who considers himself a member of an organized religion, particularly Catholicism or, to a lesser degree, Evangelical Christianity . People are simply presumed to be or at least consider themselves Christians of some form until and unless some indication to the contrary is given.

But just as frequent, if not more, is some degree of acceptance that it can be unconfortable and even dangerous to trust the judgment and behavior of specific churches, priests and Christian leaders. While belief in the divinity of Jesus is generally expected of random people in everyday situations, sympathy for random churches and priests really isn't. Even the Bible isn't necessarily well valued and well trusted by peple that think of themselves as Christians. There is a whole spectrum of degrees of identification and acceptance with various aspects of Christianity's presence in our communities.

It is also considered bad form to directly ask about those matters without being previously invited to. Christianity here is often perceived as a default state of sorts, something that we should expect to be present and expressed in most aspects of everyday life. So much so that I am honestly not sure on whether most people who identify as Christians would or do consider themselves to also be religious people. There is a degree of ambiguity that often seems to be intentional.

Far as I can see, most people here (Christians or otherwise) end up choosing to simply be pragmatic and avoid unnecessary grief by not discussing belief and trust matters very often nor very deeply in most situations. Most Brazilians will be in some combination Catholic, Protestant/Evangelical Christians, Kardecist Spiritists (who very often perceive themselves as Christians as well) and have some peripheral awareness of Orthodox Christianity and other, non-Christian creeds and beliefs. There is also a considerable but hard to measure contingent of the Brazilian creeds of African origin, Umbanda and Candomblé.

Except perhaps for the Adherents of Umbanda and Candomblé, it is not all that usual for Brazilians to insist on having and displaying very clear, stable and defined religious identities. Advice to make acquaintance of specific churches and creeds is presented fairly often and fairly casually, almost as health care information in some situations. Strong identification with a specific creed or church may even be perceived as slightly exotic here.

It is also fairly common to find people that consider themselves "spiritual but not religious" and present that statement as enough clarification. What that means exactly is really not all that clear, but it is reasonable to say that many or most people who do are in effect saying that they trust the existence and judgment of God (presumably some form of the Christian understanding of same) but are not interested in having particularly clear or deep ties with any group of organized religion.

Much of the time that is a pragmatic stance, as likely as not to be taken mainly to discourage talk about religions, which can indeed be passionate and difficult here. Perhaps even more frequent is the situation of wanting to keep good relations with at least one Christian denomination while also not creating expectations of regular observance. How devout the people of that group are will of course vary considerably. Some think of themselves as Christians more strongly and more often than others.

To the best of my understanding, there is a strong correspondence between this group and that of the Christians who dislike organized religion - at least here in Brazil.


--------

Edited to add: maybe I misunderstood you, but it looks like you consider Protestant Christianity to be one and the same thing as Non-Denominational Christianity.

There is some overlap in practice, but no, they are not really the same thing, nor particularly compatible with each other.
Thank you, for your response! Is there a reason why Brazilians a) are distrustful of churches, priests, and specific Christian leaders, and b) distrustful of the Bible itself?

Also, I am, at least somewhat aware that there is a difference between Protestant Christianity and non-denominational Christianity...However, I think that I grouped them together in a way that did not express this understanding. So, thank you!
 

Eddi

Christianity, Taoism, and Humanism
Premium Member
Yes, mainly I wish to hear from Christians that are not Orthodox or Catholic. However, I wouldn't mind hearing from a non-Christian either. (Also, if there is a Catholic or adherent to Orthodoxy here who thinks that their religion should not be organized as it is, then I would like to hear from them, as well.) Basically, I just want to know what others think that are opposed or suspicious of organized religion and what their reasons are for this.
I'll spare you my views then :D
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
Hello all!
I have come across many Christians who have a problem with "organized religion." As many of you may know, in the Catholic Faith (as well as in the Orthodox) there is both an hierarchical organization of bishops and, most importantly, an organized form of worship known as the Mass or the Liturgy. I myself am Catholic and am also very familiar with the Orthodox/Eastern Catholic Traditions. However, I am less familiar with the Protestant or Non-Denominational view on "organized religion" particularly in worship. For those who are not Catholic or Orthodox, I would be very interested in hearing your comments and thoughts about "organized religion" as you understand it. Please voice all concerns, strong opinions, etc.!
Yes is is very necessary. Faith from God is given so humanity can work together as one people on one planet. That requires organisation. With any organisation be it faith or material based, there is infrastructure that is built and needs to be maintained, there are bodies elected to guide, there are meetings etc etc, it all needs organisation.

Communication in prayer to God is an individual responsibility, that can be shared, these meetings to share praise, also need organisation.

Regards Tony
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Thank you, for your response! Is there a reason why Brazilians a) are distrustful of churches, priests, and specific Christian leaders, and b) distrustful of the Bible itself?

It is a flip side of the coin situation.

Priests, churches and the Bible can't be confortably challenged in random company, because some people will raise quite the ruckus and we are never quite sure who or when.

But at the same time, there is considerable awareness of less-than-uplifiting aspects of Christianity in Brazil. To add to that, genuine confusion seems to be very common as well. And we were a slaver monarchy - a very cruel one - about 150 years ago. There isn't too much of a consolidated social conscience here, and very often attempts are made to keep apperances with an appeal to Christian beliefs and a solidly stratified society.

Brazilians neither trust each other much nor seem to fully realize how much we are suspicious of each other and how that hurts social environments. That extends to our attitudes towards beliefs - even our own nominal ones!





Also, I am, at least somewhat aware that there is a difference between Protestant Christianity and non-denominational Christianity...However, I think that I grouped them together in a way that did not express this understanding. So, thank you!
I assumed as much, but one never knows. You're welcome.
 

danieldemol

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Hello all!
I have come across many Christians who have a problem with "organized religion." As many of you may know, in the Catholic Faith (as well as in the Orthodox) there is both an hierarchical organization of bishops and, most importantly, an organized form of worship known as the Mass or the Liturgy. I myself am Catholic and am also very familiar with the Orthodox/Eastern Catholic Traditions. However, I am less familiar with the Protestant or Non-Denominational view on "organized religion" particularly in worship. For those who are not Catholic or Orthodox, I would be very interested in hearing your comments and thoughts about "organized religion" as you understand it. Please voice all concerns, strong opinions, etc.!
I'm spiritual but not religious.
I find certain traditional religions which have some kind of innerant and/or infallibility doctrine to be resistant to necessary changes that come about due to the light of new evidence.

Also when they eventually do get dragged into modernity kicking and screaming it is usually through an apologetic process I see as intellectually dishonest - they decontextualise passages, cherry pick scripture, assign new meanings to old words/passages etc then claim they were infallible/innerant all along in spite of the changes in my view
 

The Burgundy Nun

New Member
I'm spiritual but not religious.
I find certain traditional religions which have some kind of innerant and/or infallibility doctrine to be resistant to necessary changes that come about due to the light of new evidence.

Also when they eventually do get dragged into modernity kicking and screaming it is usually through an apologetic process I see as intellectually dishonest - they decontextualise passages, cherry pick scripture, assign new meanings to old words/passages etc then claim they were infallible/innerant all along in spite of the changes in my view
This is a very good point that you brought up: "they...assign new meanings to old words/passages etc. then claim they were infallible/inerrant all along in spite of the changes." In one of my theology seminars, this very point was brought up. Do you have some examples in mind of this?
 
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