Organized Religion Necessary or Not?

[RestlessSoul]

Yes. The early history of the Puritans in New England illustrate what happened when someone went against the beliefs of the majority. For example Anne Hutchinson being forced to leave because the clergy convicted her of heresy.

Two examples from Catholicism. The Saint Who Didn’t Fit In is one example.

I don't know enough about the history of St. Francis of Assisi to be sure that the Catholic church was really an impediment but from what I know he mostly did not pay attention to the Church hierarchy. His "perfect joy" comments about a "porter" refusing him entry are to me an example of that to me: Perfect joy according to Saint Francis of Assisi

NB: I'm not a Christian but I've learned about Christianity and other religions over the years.

St Francis had a vision before the cross at Assisi, when he heard God say to him “Go and repair my church, which as you see is falling into ruin.” So he was always at odds with the church hierarchy, though humble enough not to challenge it’s temporal authority; the life of poverty he and his fellows adopted was in a sense, a revolutionary act.

 

[Kenny]

Hello all!
I have come across many Christians who have a problem with "organized religion." As many of you may know, in the Catholic Faith (as well as in the Orthodox) there is both an hierarchical organization of bishops and, most importantly, an organized form of worship known as the Mass or the Liturgy. I myself am Catholic and am also very familiar with the Orthodox/Eastern Catholic Traditions. However, I am less familiar with the Protestant or Non-Denominational view on "organized religion" particularly in worship. For those who are not Catholic or Orthodox, I would be very interested in hearing your comments and thoughts about "organized religion" as you understand it. Please voice all concerns, strong opinions, etc.!

Organization can be good or bad depending on the hearts of those who lead it. Maybe the problem is more about organized “religion” vs. just plain organized.

God is a God of order. God instituted order when Moses lead the Israelites. Our position would be:

1 Corinthians 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

1 Corinthians 14:40 Let all things be done decently and in order.

So, if hearts are right, organization is good. An organized household is good. An organized city is good. Like a body. the body of Christ is good when it is organized and healthy.

Worship, like an orchestral, is good when it is organized and everyone is in tune. Even free-styling has an organization, or an organized flow to it.

Non-denominational churches are organized individual cells, so to speak, and usually belong to fellowship that is organized for the care of those churches. When non-denominal church group are large enough, they eventually become an “organized” denomination. The Methodist Church was really a group of churches that followed John Wesley that grew into a denomination.

Like anything, any group can loose the life and then it can become organized without life. They loose their first love, they loose their purpose, they loose their vision. It can become an organized “religion” in that it 2 Timothy 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof. The lost the life power.

I think the “Dark Ages” is a good example and then Martin Luther began to bring the life and vision back.

Hope I answered all the questions and comment requests.

 

[Twilight Hue]

I think there's a benefit to being organized.

its essentially a consolidated pool of thought and experiences that one can draw from to find perspectives and approaches that you may not have thought of , or had not experienced on your own.

But....

The only problem with it all is sometimes you will find those paths such as those paths in religion , are not always aligned with actual reality as you might want it to be and you just end up stumbling through a pool of interpretations rather than established observations and information that can be verified and shared with others.

 

[Jimmy]

Necessary? No. I don’t care for it. It’s really just another business. Although I do like the architecture of churches.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Hello all!
I have come across many Christians who have a problem with "organized religion." As many of you may know, in the Catholic Faith (as well as in the Orthodox) there is both an hierarchical organization of bishops and, most importantly, an organized form of worship known as the Mass or the Liturgy. I myself am Catholic and am also very familiar with the Orthodox/Eastern Catholic Traditions. However, I am less familiar with the Protestant or Non-Denominational view on "organized religion" particularly in worship. For those who are not Catholic or Orthodox, I would be very interested in hearing your comments and thoughts about "organized religion" as you understand it. Please voice all concerns, strong opinions, etc.!

Disorganized religion does not open non-profit hospitals or soup kitchens or food banks.

There is a disturbing trend among some Protestants to say they have no religion. It is a self deceit. I try to explain to them-- you have a God, prayers, a sacred text, a moral code, and religious rituals like communion and baptism. In what universe is that not a religion?

 

[danieldemol]

Disorganized religion does not open non-profit hospitals or soup kitchens or food banks.

I'm unclear what you mean by this. In context of this thread people have used the term disorganised religion to refer to Hinduism which certainly has the likes of what you mentioned.

However if you are referring to the non-religious, socialism began as a non-religious philosophy according to my understanding and as such for the manifestations of its charity you need look no further than secular hospitals etc in socialised countries according to my understanding.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I'm unclear what you mean by this. In context of this thread people have used the term disorganised religion to refer to Hinduism which certainly has the likes of what you mentioned.

However if you are referring to the non-religious, socialism began as a non-religious philosophy according to my understanding and as such for the manifestations of its charity you need look no further than secular hospitals etc in socialised countries according to my understanding.

I'm not sure why anyone would say that Hinduism is not organized religion.

Socialism is an economic philosophy, not a religion.

It may be different where you are. Where I live, there is no such thing as a non-profit hospital that is not religious in nature or connected with a university for the purposes of training medical personnel.

 

[danieldemol]

This is a very good point that you brought up: "they...assign new meanings to old words/passages etc. then claim they were infallible/inerrant all along in spite of the changes." In one of my theology seminars, this very point was brought up. Do you have some examples in mind of this?

To be honest the examples i had in mind were of apologists changing the meaning of the writing of the Baha'i faith (my former religion) and claiming the religion was infallible, but they require some knowledge of Baha'i teachings and familiarity with the apologist's denial to understand them.

But from my understanding of Catholicism it seems as though Catholics of today say that Genesis (inclusive of Noah's flood) is allegorical not literal. Yet a pretty good case can be made that Jesus and the New Testament disciples believed that Noah's flood actually happened.

There is what appears to me to be a Calvinist site here which discusses some of the biblical justification that Jesus and his disciples believed the flood was real;

Did Jesus Erroneously teach The Flood Was Literal?

Did Jesus Teach the Flood Account Was True? A person by the username Tim_Matter, wrote a genuine and honest portrayal of his loss of faith in the “Christian God being the true God” on the Biologos forum [emphasis mine] : “In the end I realized that Noah’s flood never happened at all that...

discourse.biologos.org

I think changing the meaning from literal to pure allegory constitutes a change in meaning.

 

[danieldemol]

I'm not sure why anyone would say that Hinduism is not organized religion.

I'll leave the Hindus to explain why it is "disorganised religion"

Socialism is an economic philosophy, not a religion.

Exactly, so religion doesn't deserve the credit for socialists benefit to the poor.

It may be different where you are. Where I live, there is no such thing as a non-profit hospital that is not religious in nature or connected with a university for the purposes of training medical personnel.

'State Governments are not principally established to generate a profit. Hence the NSW Government is considered to be a not-for-profit entity.'

Source: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...EQFnoECA4QBQ&usg=AOvVaw1AiszEtfc-A8BVV4kN4-Rt

Where I am the hospitals and universities are government run. There are some private universities and hospitals as well eg catholic or others.

Would you send your child to a catholic school? I wouldn't if there were a public school available and the same goes for a catholic hospital or university.

I would suggest if the only institutions in your country are religious in nature that the religions/religious are simply not being taxed hard enough. Why should people be forced to accept the strings attached charity of religions?

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Exactly, so religion doesn't deserve the credit for socialists benefit to the poor.

I'm not sure why this is important. I never made a comment about secular groups. We were comparing organized and disorganized religion.

Would you send your child to a catholic school? I wouldn't if there were a public school available and the same goes for a catholic hospital or university.

Where I live, Catholic schools are vastly superior to public schools. And they have a sizable enrollment of non-Catholic students for that reason. Absolutely no one with money sends their kids to public schools.

I would suggest if the only institutions in your country are religious in nature that the religions/religious are simply not being taxed hard enough. Why should people be forced to accept the strings attached charity of religions?

I have absolutely no problem with religions running things like schools and hospitals. I am of the opinion that so long as the government sponsors a variety of religious schools as well as secular schools, it has not broken the establishment clause. Hospital bills are through the roof because you cannot run it for profit and keep costs down. The public schools are broken, most likely beyond repair. It is my opinion that the solution to both these problems is to increase religious involvement in these two industries.

 

[sayak83]

Hello all!
I have come across many Christians who have a problem with "organized religion." As many of you may know, in the Catholic Faith (as well as in the Orthodox) there is both an hierarchical organization of bishops and, most importantly, an organized form of worship known as the Mass or the Liturgy. I myself am Catholic and am also very familiar with the Orthodox/Eastern Catholic Traditions. However, I am less familiar with the Protestant or Non-Denominational view on "organized religion" particularly in worship. For those who are not Catholic or Orthodox, I would be very interested in hearing your comments and thoughts about "organized religion" as you understand it. Please voice all concerns, strong opinions, etc.!

I would prefer non hierarchical locally organized religious structures run only by volunteers.

 

[Unseeking seeker]

Religion (any) is a belief system, is it not, addressing mind, whereas spirituality is a direct inquiry from heart, knocking on the door of universal consciousness.

 

[danieldemol]

I'm not sure why this is important. I never made a comment about secular groups. We were comparing organized and disorganized religion.

Great, so what are you talking about when you say "disorganised religion"? You have already clarified you dont mean Hinduism, so are you referring to the non-religious?
If so then a comparison of secular institutions benefit to the poor seems appropriate.

Where I live, Catholic schools are vastly superior to public schools. And they have a sizable enrollment of non-Catholic students for that reason. Absolutely no one with money sends their kids to public schools.

Were I am there is negligible difference between catholic and public schools. Hence why a socialised system that taxes the rich for the benefit of the poor is better than your US capitalism where only those "with money" can obtain a decent education in my view.

I have absolutely no problem with religions running things like schools and hospitals. I am of the opinion that so long as the government sponsors a variety of religious schools as well as secular schools, it has not broken the establishment clause.

Well I'm no expert on US law, but in my view taking tax from the rich to benefit the poor so that *everyone* gets a decent education is vastly superior to taking tax money and using it to benefit wealthy private schools so that only those "with money" prepared to let their kids be indoctrinated by the bigotry of the clergy get a decent education in life as part of your inverse robin hood give taxes to those "with money" who dont need it system.

Hospital bills are through the roof because you cannot run it for profit and keep costs down. The public schools are broken, most likely beyond repair.

Nothing socialism hasn't fixed in other countries in my view.

It is my opinion that the solution to both these problems is to increase religious involvement in these two industries.

Yeah sure, increase the indoctrination of children into religious bigotry so you can continue taxing the population to give to those "with money" who dont even need it whilst the poor suffer - no thanks

 

[danieldemol]

Google Image Result for https://interactioninstitute.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/IISC_EqualityEquity.png

If you can see this image you will note the difference between equality on the left, and what social democracy achieves on the right (ie equity).

Far better in my view than taxing people just to give it to those "with money".

 

[1213]

Hello all!
I have come across many Christians who have a problem with "organized religion." As many of you may know, in the Catholic Faith (as well as in the Orthodox) there is both an hierarchical organization of bishops and, most importantly, an organized form of worship known as the Mass or the Liturgy. I myself am Catholic and am also very familiar with the Orthodox/Eastern Catholic Traditions. However, I am less familiar with the Protestant or Non-Denominational view on "organized religion" particularly in worship. For those who are not Catholic or Orthodox, I would be very interested in hearing your comments and thoughts about "organized religion" as you understand it. Please voice all concerns, strong opinions, etc.!

To me the best organized religion is the one Jesus taught, one teacher, Jesus, and brothers.

For they bind heavy burdens that are grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not lift a finger to help them. But all their works they do to be seen by men. They make their phylacteries broad, enlarge the fringes of their garments, and love the place of honor at feasts, the best seats in the synagogues, the salutations in the marketplaces, and to be called 'Rabbi, Rabbi' by men. But don't you be called 'Rabbi,' for one is your teacher, the Christ, and all of you are brothers. Call no man on the earth your father, for one is your Father, he who is in heaven. Neither be called masters, for one is your master, the Christ. But he who is greatest among you will be your servant. Whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.
Matt. 23:4-12

 

[ChristineM]

I would be very interested in hearing your comments and thoughts about "organized religion" as you understand it. Please voice all concerns, strong opinions, etc.!

Long time atheist here but was part of the Protestant church of England until i waa 14. So this is aimed at my views on Christian groups
Back then i thought it was wonderful to be part of the group.
Now i think organised religion is a 2 edged sword. It is often a force for good, (though secular groups are too). But it is often enough a bad influence on people and nations

 

[LuisDantas]

I'm not sure why anyone would say that Hinduism is not organized religion.

I believe that it is a perception that comes from contrasting Hinduism with the Abrahamic creeds without necessarily considering individual denominations..

Not a completely unreasonable description, but I guess I don't agree with it.

Hinduism is a collective of Sampradayas and perhaps other, less structured groups. But Christianity, at least, has its own set of very visible groups that are not all that organized.

One could (should?) make the case that those groups are just oddballs with no credibility. But some of them end up structuring themselves, even to very significant political influence.

We should probably attempt to better establish what we mean by organized religion.

 

[Rival]

We should probably attempt to better establish what we mean by organized religion.

And this is without getting into what we mean by 'religion'...

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Great, so what are you talking about when you say "disorganised religion"?

An organized religion is one where a group of people cooperate together to share beliefs and practices. Having shared worship would be an example of organized religion. Celebrating a religious holiday would be an example of organized religion.

Disorganized religion lacks that cooperation. Usually it means an individual simply forming their own unique religion that they do not share with others. They simply do their own thing.

Thus, someone who chooses disorganized religion can do things like random acts of kindness, but are unable to do any of the complex things which require the cooperation of like minded individuals.

 

[danieldemol]

An organized religion is one where a group of people cooperate together to share beliefs and practices. Having shared worship would be an example of organized religion. Celebrating a religious holiday would be an example of organized religion.

Disorganized religion lacks that cooperation. Usually it means an individual simply forming their own unique religion that they do not share with others. They simply do their own thing.

Thus, someone who chooses disorganized religion can do things like random acts of kindness, but are unable to do any of the complex things which require the cooperation of like minded individuals.

I believe that people who lack common beliefs about God can co-operate through political parties which share common aspirations (such as educating and healing the poor) without the necessity of having completely uniform belief sets.