• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Original Sin - a question about it

waitasec

Veteran Member
The quality or state of being obedient... Obedient means being submissive to the restraint or command of authority... I don't see anything in there about lack of thought or knowledge.
from Dictionary and Thesaurus - Merriam-Webster Online
when you say restraint you mean, "Loss or abridgment of freedom."?
isn't that adhering t a celestial dictatorship in a tyrannical sense
tyrannical meaning: a single ruler is vested with absolute power

I do not know a single Christian who follows God out of fear of the repercussions of sin.
so then, what is it believers think they are being saved from? isn't it the consequences of their inevitable sin?

We aren't.
care to explain how that can be?

Because it isn't... You confuse the statement "our nature desires sin" with "we desire sin". They are not the same thing. The first is poetic, it involves metaphor. The personification of our human nature by saying it desires
nature means "the essential characteristics and qualities of a person"
so what you are indeed saying is 'our essential characteristic is to desire to sin'


To say our nature desires sin is to say we are, by our nature, predisposed to, or prone to, sin.
no it's not...
if you said 'our nature is inclined to sin...' that i can agree with, but when you use the word 'desire' inclination is now replaced with intent to sin...

That is a great example... I would agree that it is in our human nature to seek out the truth... that does not mean everyone does so.
of course everyone does...unless those who are deviant by nature ;)

We can reject portions of our inherent nature; "you" are not your nature.
i disagree, what is "the essential characteristics and qualities of a person"?
a characteristic by definition is: "a feature that helps to distinguish a person or thing; distinctive"

How did you ever take that from the quote you are responding to?
since no one said being curious was sinful...what is one to do with the innate sense of curiosity...? just be unconcerned about it, ignore it?
 

Mister Emu

Emu Extraordinaire
Staff member
Premium Member
when you say restraint you mean, "Loss or abridgment of freedom."?
Restrain : to prevent from doing, exhibiting, or expressing something <restrained the child from jumping> : to limit, restrict, or keep under control <try to restrain your anger>
Dictionary and Thesaurus - Merriam-Webster Online


isn't that adhering t a celestial dictatorship in a tyrannical sense
I believe in a celestial monarchy. The words dictator and tyrant have such negative baggage.

so then, what is it believers think they are being saved from? isn't it the consequences of their inevitable sin?
That is irrelevant to the motivation for following God.

nature means "the essential characteristics and qualities of a person"
so what you are indeed saying is 'our essential characteristic is to desire to sin'
if you said 'our nature is inclined to sin...' that i can agree with, but when you use the word 'desire' inclination is now replaced with intent to sin...
No, metaphor. Characteristics and qualities cannot desire, they are not living things. You are stuck on the word desire when I've already explained it is personification.

Oh and I'd quibble with the "essential" part of the definition and substitute "inherent".

I did not say "our nature is to desire sin" I said "our nature desires sin". Two very different statements.

i disagree, what is "the essential characteristics and qualities of a person"?
a characteristic by definition is: "a feature that helps to distinguish a person or thing; distinctive"
My quibble remains, I intended inherent and not essential. Therefore? We cannot reject any of the inherent unchosen attributes that distinguish us(sometimes in negative ways) from others? No one who is quick to anger works to keep that in check?

since no one said being curious was sinful...what is one to do with the innate sense of curiosity...? just be unconcerned about it, ignore it?
Use it? Like many things there are healthy and unhealthy avenues for curiosity to take.
 

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
We beleive that Jesus would not be returning in a physical sense ever again.

Remember when Elijah was promised to be returned to the Jews?
Then Jesus said that, John the Baptist, was the return of Elijah. The people at that time rejected John, as they expected that, Elijah Himself would return in a physical sense.
By the return of Prophets of God, is meant the return of same Spritual Qualities in another prophet of the later Age.

The start of a new Age is like the start of spring time. It's the time for renewal of all things. The resurrection time!
Now, let's say that spring actually has started. How do we know it started or not?



When it is spring, the fruits don't appear on the first day of spring. But first we see a change in the climate, then trees and everything Wake Up. Then we see the blooms. Everything must be resurrected. Then the Blooms eventually turn to fruits.

Therefore can we say that the spring is not here yet, just because the final fruits are not here yet? No, the spring or the new Age has already begun, as there has been signs of a great change in the 19th century. Everything is changed.

The removal of mankinds rulerships and all the good promises, will be the final fruits of the new age.

The last days, are like the final days of Winter, while the new age is the beginning of the spring time. We will get the final fruits by the summer time.
 
Last edited:

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
You are saying the new Age has not started yet, but I strongly believe that it did.
The new Age is like spring time. It's the time for renewal of all things.
Now, let's say that spring actually has started. How do we know it started or not?
You are saying that the spring has not started because we haven't seen the fruits yet. You are saying that "the kingdom has not permanently removed mankinds rulerships." But this will be the final fruit of the new age.

I am saying that, when it is spring, the fruits don't appear on the first day of spring. But first we see a change in the climate, then trees and everything Wake Up. Then we see the blooms. Everything must be resurrected. Then the Blooms eventually turn to fruits.

Therefore can we say that the spring is not here yet, just because the final fruits are not here yet? No, the spring or the new Age has already begun, as there has been signs of a great change in the 19th century. Everything is changed.

The last days, are like the final days of Winter, while the new age is the beginning of the spring time. We will get the final fruits by the summer time.



Remember when Elijah was promised to be returned to the Jews?
Then Jesus said that, John the Baptist, was the return of Elijah. The people at that time rejected John, as they expected that, Elijah Himself would return in a physical sense.
By the return of Prophets of God, is meant the return of same Spritual Qualities in another prophet of the later Age.

ok :)
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
Hey pegg, I just edited a little my last post, but seems like you read it before I make the editing.


i like the springtime analogy....it implies there is something great to look forward to which I fully agree with

i guess we'll differ on the time frames of when these things will occur, but its good to know there are people like yourself who are convinced they will occur :)
 

blueman

God's Warrior
The curse of sin derived from one man (Adam) in whom God held accountable for his disobedience. Through one man (Jesus), the only begotton Son of God, we are redeemed. God gave both Adam and Eve free will, becuase He wanted to be worshiped and obeyed, willingly, not forcefully. There are consequences to our sin and as a result the curse of sin, we live in a fallen world. We can look around us and see this is a cold, hard fact. But through Christ Jesus, we are redeemed and there is no condemnation to those who believe in His name.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
The curse of sin derived from one man (Adam) in whom God held accountable for his disobedience. Through one man (Jesus), the only begotton Son of God, we are redeemed. God gave both Adam and Eve free will, becuase He wanted to be worshiped and obeyed, willingly, not forcefully. There are consequences to our sin and as a result the curse of sin, we live in a fallen world. We can look around us and see this is a cold, hard fact. But through Christ Jesus, we are redeemed and there is no condemnation to those who believe in His name.

The only part you got right.
 

waitasec

Veteran Member
Restrain : to prevent from doing, exhibiting, or expressing something <restrained the child from jumping> : to limit, restrict, or keep under control <try to restrain your anger>
Dictionary and Thesaurus - Merriam-Webster Online
ok, so what does this really mean in practice?
restraining from what exactly?


I believe in a celestial monarchy. The words dictator and tyrant have such negative baggage.
well of course that is what you would prefer to believe, but according to the bible this absolute power is not pretty, it is a tyrannical dictatorship...
the ideal of theocracy(the principle of how it works) has been the catalyst for tyrannical dictatorships...an absolute rule... no freedom.

That is irrelevant to the motivation for following God.
well what is it then? a sense of comfort that a believer is on god's side?

No, metaphor. Characteristics and qualities cannot desire, they are not living things. You are stuck on the word desire when I've already explained it is personification.
it's a characteristic to desire to sin...
in which i said that is not true because humanities characteristic is to be curious about knowing the truth...
other wise you are insinuating we have no choice but to want to deviate from the truth...missing the mark purposefully, sin.

in genesis for instance your god says, every inclination in our hearts is to sin since childhood, when nothing could be further from the truth...
children are curious creatures...because they WANT to learn the truth
I said "our nature desires sin".
in other words
our nature wants sin... hogwash...give people more credit than that.
as i said before, the basic element in us all is to know and understand truth...because of our innate curious nature.

My quibble remains, I intended inherent and not essential.

in·her·ent
: involved in the constitution or essential character of something : belonging by nature or habit : intrinsic <risks inherent in the venture>
Inherent - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

Use it? Like many things there are healthy and unhealthy avenues for curiosity to take.
well what would be unhealthy and why?
 
Last edited:

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
i like the springtime analogy....it implies there is something great to look forward to which I fully agree with

i guess we'll differ on the time frames of when these things will occur, but its good to know there are people like yourself who are convinced they will occur :)

I'll get back to you on the details of calculation of the year and etc. later.

But another point that I find intersting and worthy to reflect on; is that, How could God promises to the Jews at that time that He would send Elijah again, but instead He sent John? Wouldn't people get confused? or How people are supposed to believe or recognize that John was Elijah? Why from begining God didn't say that I will send John, so people can believe easier, as opposed to reject him?
 

Mister Emu

Emu Extraordinaire
Staff member
Premium Member
ok, so what does this really mean in practice?
To be obedient to God means we submit to His commands, that is what it means in practice.

t is a tyrannical dictatorship
"well of course that is what you want to believe".

the ideal of theocracy(the principle of how it works) has been the catalyst for tyrannical dictatorships
Therefore?

well what is it then?
Thanks for asking :)
Love.

it's a characteristic to desire to sin...
Not what I said.

our nature wants sin
Indeed... poetically of course. Because, again, our nature cannot want or desire, it is not a living thing.

: involved in the constitution or essential character of something : belonging by nature or habit : intrinsic <risks inherent in the venture>
Bold for emphasis.

well what would be unhealthy and why?
Wondering how/why people get sick so that can heal them: healthy
Wondering how it feels to kill someone: unhealthy(do I truly need to explain why?)
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
I'll get back to you on the details of calculation of the year and etc. later.

But another point that I find intersting and worthy to reflect on; is that, How could God promises to the Jews at that time that He would send Elijah again, but instead He sent John? Wouldn't people get confused? or How people are supposed to believe or recognize that John was Elijah? Why from begining God didn't say that I will send John, so people can believe easier, as opposed to reject him?

the prophets of the bible were writing under inspiration...sometimes from visions. They wrote accounts of what they saw while under inspiriation. In the case of Malachi, he envisioned a person who he understood to be Elijah, coming at a future time. Malachi 4:5 “I am sending to you people Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and fear-inspiring day of Jehovah.”
Now, just because he wrote it in such a way does not mean it should be literally understood exactly as it was written. I think God deliberately had the bible written in such a way so that only he could reveal the truths of the bible to mankind (through his representatives)

It was infact Jesus who identified John the Baptist with Malachi's prophecy. This is further evidence that his representatives reveal what is written, and they do so only with Gods guidance. If we doubt what they say, then it is as if we are doubting God himself.
Matthew 11: 13 For all, the Prophets and the Law, prophesied until John; 14 and if YOU want to accept it, He himself is ‘E&#8231;li&#8242;jah who is destined to come.’ 15 Let him that has ears listen.

Also, when the Angel spoke to John the Baptists father, the priest Zech&#8231;a&#8231;ri&#8242;ah, he explained what Johns role would be. Its recorded in Luke 1:

14 And you will have joy and great gladness, and many will rejoice over his birth; 15 for he will be great before Jehovah....16 and many of the sons of Israel will he turn back to Jehovah their God. 17 Also, he will go before him with E&#8231;li&#8242;jah’s spirit and power, to turn back the hearts of fathers to children and the disobedient ones to the practical wisdom of righteous ones, to get ready for Jehovah a prepared people.”

Notice how the angel reveals that John would have Elijahs spirit? This shows that the prophecy about Elijah coming again was not in the literal sense, but rather a person would come who would perform a similar work to Elijah with a similar spirit. John was that person.
 

waitasec

Veteran Member
To be obedient to God means we submit to His commands, that is what it means in practice.
and what commands are those?


Therefore?
it's a celestial tyrannical dictatorship
and you seem ok with it, interesting

Thanks for asking :)
Love.

"better learn to love me or else..."
Not what I said.


Indeed... poetically of course. Because, again, our nature cannot want or desire, it is not a living thing.

nice back pedaling...poetry is not your friend
our nature is our essential character...
so to say it 'is our natures desire to sin'
is saying it is our essential character to want to sin...wrong.

Wondering how it feels to kill someone: unhealthy(do I truly need to explain why?)
wondering about what it would feel like to kill someone may keep someone from doing it...
it's not so black and white...
 

Mister Emu

Emu Extraordinaire
Staff member
Premium Member
and what commands are those?
They are many. I'm not going to list them all.

it's a celestial tyrannical dictatorship
Non sequitur. That human implementation of theocracy has led to tyranny has no bearing on whether or not God is a tyrant.

"better learn to love me or else..."
:rolleyes:

nice back pedaling..
Except I clarified what the statement meant in my first response to you.

our nature is our essential character...
so to say it 'is our natures desire to sin'
is saying it is our essential character to want to sin
...wrong.
No, it is not. Do you not understand what personification is? Do you not understand metaphor?

wondering about what it would feel like to kill someone may keep someone from doing it...
it's not so black and white...
You are correct, here I chose my words poorly...

Curiosity into, that is the desire to know, what it would feel like, first hand, to kill someone is unhealthy.
 

waitasec

Veteran Member
They are many. I'm not going to list them all.
you don't have to list them all...just 1 or 2 would be fine...
and don't talk about the obvious, just a command that i would find to be exclusively belonging to believers...

Non sequitur. That human implementation of theocracy has led to tyranny has no bearing on whether or not God is a tyrant.


:rolleyes:


Except I clarified what the statement meant in my first response to you.


No, it is not. Do you not understand what personification is? Do you not understand metaphor?
to desire is not an abstract quality of a person...
people wanting things it is a part of the character...
again, our natures desires to sin...is our wanting to sin. you just used
a word (desires) that ordinarily designates one thing, to want, is used to designate another, to want intentionally...so your 'metaphor' wasn't a good one...
because it is understood that through the eyes of your god, people intentionally want to sin and i would go as far as saying that being innately curious is what god considers sin.


Curiosity into, that is the desire to know, what it would feel like, first hand, to kill someone is unhealthy.

that is still not good enough...those examples can be used as a deterrent from committing the act.

lets use something that isn't so obvious...what else is a dangerous curiosity that anyone can be subjected to that is not healthy- exclusively known only in the believers world...
 

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
the prophets of the bible were writing under inspiration...sometimes from visions. They wrote accounts of what they saw while under inspiriation. In the case of Malachi, he envisioned a person who he understood to be Elijah, coming at a future time. Malachi 4:5 &#8220;I am sending to you people Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and fear-inspiring day of Jehovah.&#8221;
Now, just because he wrote it in such a way does not mean it should be literally understood exactly as it was written. I think God deliberately had the bible written in such a way so that only he could reveal the truths of the bible to mankind (through his representatives)

It was infact Jesus who identified John the Baptist with Malachi's prophecy. This is further evidence that his representatives reveal what is written, and they do so only with Gods guidance. If we doubt what they say, then it is as if we are doubting God himself.
Matthew 11: 13 For all, the Prophets and the Law, prophesied until John; 14 and if YOU want to accept it, He himself is &#8216;E&#8231;li&#8242;jah who is destined to come.&#8217; 15 Let him that has ears listen.

Also, when the Angel spoke to John the Baptists father, the priest Zech&#8231;a&#8231;ri&#8242;ah, he explained what Johns role would be. Its recorded in Luke 1:

14 And you will have joy and great gladness, and many will rejoice over his birth; 15 for he will be great before Jehovah....16 and many of the sons of Israel will he turn back to Jehovah their God. 17 Also, he will go before him with E&#8231;li&#8242;jah&#8217;s spirit and power, to turn back the hearts of fathers to children and the disobedient ones to the practical wisdom of righteous ones, to get ready for Jehovah a prepared people.&#8221;

Notice how the angel reveals that John would have Elijahs spirit? This shows that the prophecy about Elijah coming again was not in the literal sense, but rather a person would come who would perform a similar work to Elijah with a similar spirit. John was that person.
Yes, I totally agree and I do believe that Elijah was the spiritual return of John.

So, you are saying that "In the case of Malachi, he envisioned a person who he understood to be Elijah, coming at a future time"


Let me ask you this then. If God wanted to inspire Malachi and have him to know and understand and explain to people that the prophet who would come in the future, his name would be John and not Elijah, but he would be his spiritual return and not literal, couldn't God have done so? Are you saying that, God was powerless to reveal the words properly to Malachi? Even if you say that, God revealed properly to Malachi, but Malachi didn't have the ability to understand fully, clearly God could have given Malachi the required ability to understand.

I believe surely God could have done that, and surely did. But, the point is that, there must have been a wisdom, that the Prophets, didn't reveal the Hidden Mysteries of God. As it is written:

"But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory" 1 Corinthians 2:7

So, why is it written that, the Book was sealed? What's your understanding of that? I mean, if everyone can understand the mysteries of the Book, then why it says, it is sealed? and if it is sealed, why should God seal the Book?
Anyways, the point that I am trying to make is that, I believe the same rule was applied to the return of Christ, and the mysteries of resurrection, which we discussed before.
The Mysteries of the past Age is revealed in the later Age.
 
Last edited:

Mister Emu

Emu Extraordinaire
Staff member
Premium Member
just a command that i would find to be exclusively belonging to believers...
Believe in the Son of God: Jesus.

again, our natures desires to sin...is our wanting to sin.
You cannot just transfer the quality given in the personification. If I said "our nature speaks boisterously, demanding our attention" that would not mean every person is a boisterous attention seeker.

that is still not good enough...those examples can be used as a deterrent from committing the act.
A desire to personally know what it feels like to kill someone is plain and simple unhealthy.
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
Yes, I totally agree and I do believe that Elijah was the spiritual return of John.

So, you are saying that "In the case of Malachi, he envisioned a person who he understood to be Elijah, coming at a future time"


Let me ask you this then. If God wanted to inspire Malachi and have him to know and understand and explain to people that the prophet who would come in the future, his name would be John and not Elijah, but he would be his spiritual return and not literal, couldn't God have done so? Are you saying that, God was powerless to reveal the words properly to Malachi? Even if you say that, God revealed properly to Malachi, but Malachi didn't have the ability to understand fully, clearly God could have given Malachi the required ability to understand.

Do you find the name of Jesus anywhere in the Hebrew scriptures? You believe he was the Messiah, yet nowhere in the hebrew scriptures is he named. So even though the prophets were discussing the coming of the Messiah through revelations from God, they did not know who that one would be which is evidence that God did not provide them all with every detail and every bit of understanding.

I believe surely God could have done that, and surely did. But, the point is that, there must have been a wisdom, that the Prophets, didn't reveal the Hidden Mysteries of God. As it is written:
"But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory" 1 Corinthians 2:7

The mystery is in the 'understanding' of what had been written. It was a mystery even to those who wrote it. Daniel is a good example. Regarding some of the visions he saw, he said: “I heard, but I could not understand.” When he asked for more information he was told: “Go, Daniel, because the words are made secret and sealed up until the time of the end.” Dan. 12:8, 9
So Daniel did not understand all that he wrote. And he wasnt the only one. The Apostle Peter wrote: “Concerning this very salvation a diligent inquiry and a careful search were made by the prophets who prophesied ...They kept on investigating what particular season or what sort of season the spirit in them was indicating concerning Christ when it was bearing witness beforehand about the sufferings for Christ and about the glories to follow these. It was revealed to them that, not to themselves, but to you, they were ministering the things that have now been announced to you.” 1 Pet. 1:10-12
Notice that what was 'revealed not to themselves' but they were telling of things that have 'now been announced to you' because the prophets did not get to see the fulfillment of their visions and prophecies and therefore they could not understand fully how they would occur.

So, why is it written that, the Book was sealed? What's your understanding of that? I mean, if everyone can understand the mysteries of the Book, then why it says, it is sealed? and if it is sealed, why should God seal the Book?
Anyways, the point that I am trying to make is that, I believe the same rule was applied to the return of Christ, and the mysteries of resurrection, which we discussed before.
The Mysteries of the past Age is revealed in the later Age.

Yes we pretty much agree with that. The reason being that the fulfillments of prophecies are sealed until the physical facts appear that begin to fulfill them. Basically, prophecies cannot be understood until they are in the course of fulfillment or until they have been fulfilled. For example, no one could have known that the Messiah was Jesus Christ until AFTER he had arrived and shown himself and fulfilled the prophecies spoken about him.

So prophecies are as if 'sealed' until the time they occur. Once they have happened, they are recognized and they are no longer sealed.
 

waitasec

Veteran Member
Believe in the Son of God: Jesus.
i never quite got how to be commanded to believe, have faith or hope in something can work


You cannot just transfer the quality given in the personification. If I said "our nature speaks boisterously, demanding our attention" that would not mean every person is a boisterous attention seeker.
i don't know about that...you are describing a definitive characteristic about our nature...
however if you said,"our nature may at times speak boisterously, demanding our attention" wouldn't give an explicit characteristic to our nature...

so then, what did you mean...? and do you agree that every inclination of mankind is evil since childhood?

A desire to personally know what it feels like to kill someone is plain and simple unhealthy.

ok...
put yourself in the shoes of a parent who's child was killed by someone...it happens...
still doesn't say the parent would follow through...some have most don't.
 
Last edited:
Top