Original Sin Fact or Fiction?

[Scott1]

Don't Lutherans and Roman Catholics currently have an agreement not to agree on the issues of "faith and works"?

No.

The present Joint Declaration has this intention: namely, to show that on the basis of their dialogue the subscribing Lutheran churches and the Roman Catholic Church are now able to articulate a common understanding of our justification by God's grace through faith in Christ. It does not cover all that either church teaches about justification; it does encompass a consensus on basic truths of the doctrine of justification and shows that the remaining differences in its explication are no longer the occasion for doctrinal condemnations.

JOINT DECLARATION ​

ON THE DOCTRINE OF JUSTIFICATION​

by the Lutheran World Federation​

and the Catholic Church​

Click on the link if you'd like to read the whole document.

Peace,
Scott

 

[BruceDLimber]

... it is impossible to not sin.

Not so, Luna.

Just extremely difficult.

Bruce

 

[lunamoth]

Not so, Luna.

Just extremely difficult.

Bruce

Hi Bruce,

So why must you bring yourself to account each day?

And what reason did Abdul Baha give for not being able to have two wives, even after Baha'u'llah permitted it in the Kitab-i-Aqdas?

peace,
Laurie

 

[Popeyesays]

So your god has a good/evil "balance sheet" or something like that?

Evil is not evil if you have enough good works to cancel it out.... is that it?

Why do you need "pre-requisites"?

That would make your previous statement: "We were created noble because we can be sinless if we choose to do so." FALSE.

It should read:
"We were created noble because we can be sinless if we choose to follow certain "pre-requisites" only available to those people who have read Baha'u'llah, The Arabic Hidden Words."

What happens to people who do not know your god Baha'u'llah or reject his/her teachings? Do they go to hell/are they damned in some way?

All with Peter to Jesus through Mary,
Scott

God does not have a balance sheet, I do. Baha`u'llah says we can atone for sins by carefully studying what we have done that might be wrong - and making the adjustment in our behavior. Honest repentance should contain some decision NOT to repeat the behavior? Honest repentance can be asked for when we DO repeat the behavior. I would remind you what Jesus said to the woman - "Go, and sin no more." There is a demand for a change in behavior if I ever saw one.

I think judgement is going over my balance sheet that I have carried with me. The sins I have repented, aren't there.

The fact is that we can choose our behavior in the end. We may hem and haw, zig and zag, doge and run, hit and miss - but in the end no one is responsible for my sins but me. Adam's sins, or my father's sins have nothing to do with it.

I was created noble BECAUSE I am capable of choice. I may act nobly, or abase myself by my own acts. Sin is a choice, not the process of choosing. I can choose to act nobly and be thereby sinless. The chances are that I have messed up plenty over nearly sixty years. Calling myself to account each day is HOW I repent those sins.

See the difference?

Regards,
Scott

 

[Quiddity]

Popeyesays, are you going to answer any of his questions. I want to hear what you got to say about them.

 

[Popeyesays]

Popeyesays, are you going to answer any of his questions. I want to hear what you got to say about them.

I answered the first two in my previous post - balance sheets and evil and good acts balancing one another. I'll sum up:
The balance sheet is kept by me. God does not need it.

A life that "balances" evil and good acts is probably not a very good one. We certainly have better examples in Christ and Baha`u'llah.

I'll address the other questions momentarily.

Regards,
Scott

 

[Popeyesays]

From Scott1:
"So your god has a good/evil "balance sheet" or something like that?

Evil is not evil if you have enough good works to cancel it out.... is that it?

Why do you need "pre-requisites"?

That would make your previous statement: "We were created noble because we can be sinless if we choose to do so." FALSE.

It should read:
"We were created noble because we can be sinless if we choose to follow certain "pre-requisites" only available to those people who have read Baha'u'llah, The Arabic Hidden Words."

What happens to people who do not know your god Baha'u'llah or reject his/her teachings? Do they go to hell/are they damned in some way?

All with Peter to Jesus through Mary,
Scott "

The prerequisites were the first two of the Arabic Hidden Words as I recall:

"1. O SON OF SPIRIT!
My first counsel is this: Possess a pure, kindly and radiant heart, that thine may be a sovereignty ancient, imperishable and everlasting.
2. O SON OF SPIRIT!
The best beloved of all things in My sight is Justice; turn not away therefrom if thou desirest Me, and neglect it not that I may confide in thee. By its aid thou shalt see with thine own eyes and not through the eyes of others, and shalt know of thine own knowledge and not through the knowledge of thy neighbor. Ponder this in thy heart; how it behooveth thee to be. Verily justice is My gift to thee and the sign of My loving-kindness. Set it then before thine eyes.
(Baha'u'llah, The Arabic Hidden Words)

In my opinion "Justice" is what I need to have in mind when I call myself to account each day. Practicing justice in judging one's behavior is not easy. If you don't do it you will never affectively call yourself to account. That's why those are prerequisite.

I do not think a Christian would think twice about the words of the first verse if it came from the Gospel - in fact Jesus says much the same thing in the Gospels. Christians might have trouble "judging" others, but certainly it is useful within one's self, is it not?

"What happens to people who do not know your god Baha'u'llah or reject his/her teachings? Do they go to hell/are they damned in some way?"

Baha`u'llah is not God. God has no partners nor equals, he is not multiplied nor divided.

One who has never heard the name of Baha`u'llah lives his life in accord with his own beliefs. If he works to promote the unity of mankind, and serves others in his life, he already IS a Baha`i.

There is no condemnation in the Baha`i Faith. Heaven and Hell are not physical places but states of being. I can dwell in either while I still draw breath and live in the physical sense. I am taught to worship God without thought of reward or punishment because to do so in hope of one, or fear of the other is not worthy worship.

I hope this answers the questions.

Regards,
Scott

 

[lunamoth]

A broken and contrite heart Lord, you will not despise.

For me this is part of it. Not to go into any self-demeaning details, but when the weight of my sin became clearer to me, and I think it is part of God's mercy that we do not fully see all of our sin, I also realized how inadequate my attempts at redeeming myself really were. This is the weight of personal sin, not original sin, yet the fact that each day I would wake up and again not be able to love the Lord with all of my heart and fail at loving my neighbor as myself, well, it changed me. I was a Baha'i at the time and the teachings only weighed on me more heavily. I was going into the the next life handicapped and helpless. The burden of my sin was so great, and I could not look forward to full reunion with my Lord. It was all on me, and I was alone.

I did not feel loved by a God who would let me go into the next life stunted and handicapped, even if I fully deserved it.

peace,
lunamoth

 

[ashai]

I'd like to offer this topic for discussion from a divergence of Michel's thread in this same forum.

Original sin is a false doctrine because it is in opposition to the concept of divine justice.

That's in the form of a formal debate topic.


"But the mass of the Christians believe that, as Adam ate of the forbidden tree, He sinned in that He disobeyed, and that the disastrous consequences of this disobedience have been transmitted as a heritage and have remained among His descendants. Hence Adam became the cause of the death of humanity. This explanation is unreasonable and evidently wrong, for it means that all men, even the Prophets and the Messengers of God, without committing any sin or fault, but simply because they are the posterity of Adam, have become without reason guilty sinners, and until the day of the sacrifice of Christ were held captive in hell in painful torment. This is far from the justice of God. If Adam was a sinner, what is the sin of Abraham? What is the fault of Isaac, or of Joseph? Of what is Moses guilty?"
(Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 120)

Regards,
Scott

Ushta Scott

We Zoroastrians, as usual, have a different take. We don ot conceive of the Creator as creating creatures to be blindly obedient for fear of punishment or for depositing blind faith on an authority;

On the contrary we see a Creator that has used natural laws , which we believe are part of His nature and include ethical/moral laws as well, to create and that creation has progressed to the point where ethically cognizant beings with an analytical mind capable of abstrac thought can comprehend value judgments and live by them.

That same creator has given these beings free will and a conscience to act as their moral compass. S/He has also has created many creatures and all develop and grow into maturity. The point is that the Creator did not create us to glorify him or to worship Him, S/He created to have these beings become like Him within their limitations.

That means that we reject the idea that we were created in the likeness of God in any sense but in being ethically endowed. But we are created like creatures needing to grow. We are here to grow into God likeness.

Thus God cannot be just and punish us for being immature , we are created that way. Besides punishment is no substitute for learning. God teaches S/he does not condemn. True, lessons can be harsh but only if we choose wrong and stubbornly persevere on it.

For the Creator has established Good returns for right choices and bad returns for wrong choices. He has also made it clear in nature that it is good to pay attention to its laws. Thus we quickly learn that it is good to act according to gravity, that fire burns etc. But there are also Ethical laws which are sumarized in Loving right, and choosing accordingly in thought word and deed And Right is defined as that which promotes our growth to Completeness, what brings about enlightenment , self realization of our potential which can only happen if we replace wrong with right in thought word and deed

Selflessness , Goodnes for its own sake, and helping others are the means of righteousness achieveable though a Progressively Beneficial Will and Good Loving Thinking

:tsk: We cannot even comprehend of a Deity that would punish man for braking rules when it is obvious that man breaks these rules because he does not understand, nor believes that doing so will destroy him. A Loving Deity which is "benignant to all the living" teaches and rehabilitates, S/He does not condem and torment.

Sin is nothing but error, it is not a power and we are only enslaved to it if we think we are. When we make a mistake we correct it and move on , we do not wallow in self pity and cry out that we are fallen and incapable of doing good :tsk:

If we fail, and we often do we have assurance that gives us confidence for we know the creator and know that we will have many chances to make ammends and that we will learn through experiencing the results of our choices how to choose aright . For S/He is patient and merciful:bounce

We also trust in the All Good for S/He is a merciful teacher and Soul Mate to mortals S/He is All Good and incapable of harm. S/He expects us to learn by trial and error and will never see us as fallen creatures but as growing children:dan:

Ushta te
Ashai