Original Sin

[lunamoth]

In one view, original sin is not when Eva ate the forbidden fruit, and it is not related to sexual intercourse, or some kind of stain humans are born with, but it is alienation from God, creation, and each other.

The 'cure' for original sin, thus, is to overcome that alienation. In this interpretation love is the means of atonement - at-one-ment.

 

[sandandfoam]

That type of thinking really appeals to me luna. I find that there is deep value in the bible and christianity when it's taken as a story with depth of meaning.
It's those who would use them as blunt instruments make me want to run away like a man with a fire in his head

 

[lunamoth]

That type of thinking really appeals to me luna. I find that there is deep value in the bible and christianity when it's taken as a story with depth of meaning.
It's those who would use them as blunt instruments make me want to run away like a man with a fire in his head

Thanks, stephen. I don't think the Bible was meant to be used as a weapon.

 

[BruceDLimber]

The 'cure' for original sin, thus, is ....

In fact, the "cure" for "original sin" is to recognize that, as the Jewish scriptures make clear, sin is NOT inherited!:

Ezekiel 18
14 Now, lo, if he beget a son that seeth all his father’s sins which he hath done, and considereth, and doeth not such like, . . .
17 He shall not die for the iniquity of his father; he shall surely live! …
19 Yet say ye, Why? Doth not the son bear the iniquity of the father? When the son hath done that which is lawful and right, [and] hath kept all my statutes, and hath done them, he shall surely live.
20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Peace,

Bruce

 

[sojourner]

In one view, original sin is not when Eva ate the forbidden fruit, and it is not related to sexual intercourse, or some kind of stain humans are born with, but it is alienation from God, creation, and each other.

The 'cure' for original sin, thus, is to overcome that alienation. In this interpretation love is the means of atonement - at-one-ment.

As I understand it, "original sin" is the "natural" state of humanity. That is, we are created good, but we're also created with free will. That's what it means to be created in the image of God -- that we have free will and are, like God, creative with our will. Since we have free will, we are not inexorably tied to God. That means there's an essential difference between us and God. We are human -- God is Other than human. It's that disconnect from God that constitutes sin -- not necessarily the bad stuff we do, or the "fact" that human beings are spiritually "dirty." We are simply essentially disconnected from God by virtue of free will.

Through free will, we can also choose to come back to God. Since this will never truly happen in our lifetime, it's not our state of being, but our state of will that's efficacious. In other words, God has given us grace. Humanity is under grace. We can either choose to act the part, or not.

 

[lunamoth]

As I understand it, "original sin" is the "natural" state of humanity. That is, we are created good, but we're also created with free will. That's what it means to be created in the image of God -- that we have free will and are, like God, creative with our will. Since we have free will, we are not inexorably tied to God. That means there's an essential difference between us and God. We are human -- God is Other than human. It's that disconnect from God that constitutes sin -- not necessarily the bad stuff we do, or the "fact" that human beings are spiritually "dirty." We are simply essentially disconnected from God by virtue of free will.

Through free will, we can also choose to come back to God. Since this will never truly happen in our lifetime, it's not our state of being, but our state of will that's efficacious. In other words, God has given us grace. Humanity is under grace. We can either choose to act the part, or not.

Thanks, Soj. That is a clear explanation. Disconnected from God is the same as alienation. The other 'symptoms' of original sin, then, are our alienation, or disconnection, from each other and creation.

 

[sojourner]

Thanks, Soj. That is a clear explanation. Disconnected from God is the same as alienation. The other 'symptoms' of original sin, then, are our alienation, or disconnection, from each other and creation.

Yeppers!

 

[doppelganger]

Original sin is the social construct of "free will" and it's offspring - shame, guilt, responsibility - aka "the Law". To paraphrase Paul, the Law actually makes the sin. Finding the mystery of Christ within - love, uncertainty of identity - one finds the dual existence of being fully the self and fully divine, and the Garden once again becomes home.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

We come into this world without sin.
The Holy spirit, from that moment, Guides and comforts us. It is our first connection with God as new souls.

As infants we have the potential to love and to make connections.
Our first human connections are usually with our parents and family.

I do not believe we are born with alienation or disconnection.
But rather we are born with this potential to love.

For many this early potential is frustrated by events.
Our knowledge of God is stunted before it can grow.

However God never deserts Us. The potential remains, for the Holy Spirit, to work Gods love in us. Our disconnect from God can never be more than one way, he never loses connection with us.

Our free will does not represent sin, but it does make it possible for us to sin.

All sin is self inflicted.
All sin can be repented
All sin will be forgiven .

 

[lunamoth]

Original sin is the social construct of "free will" and it's offspring - shame, guilt, responsibility - aka "the Law". To paraphrase Paul, the Law actually makes the sin. Finding the mystery of Christ within - love, uncertainty of identity - one finds the dual existence of being fully the self and fully divine, and the Garden once again becomes home.

Well said and thank you for making the connection to 'the Law.' The only part I'm not sure I get is 'uncertainty of identity.' Do you mean the blurring or loss of distinction between ourselves and others, and/or ourselves and creation?

 

[sojourner]

We come into this world without sin.
The Holy spirit, from that moment, Guides and comforts us. It is our first connection with God as new souls.

As infants we have the potential to love and to make connections.
Our first human connections are usually with our parents and family.

I do not believe we are born with alienation or disconnection.
But rather we are born with this potential to love.

For many this early potential is frustrated by events.
Our knowledge of God is stunted before it can grow.

However God never deserts Us. The potential remains, for the Holy Spirit, to work Gods love in us. Our disconnect from God can never be more than one way, he never loses connection with us.

Our free will does not represent sin, but it does make it possible for us to sin.

All sin is self inflicted.
All sin can be repented
All sin will be forgiven .

How do you, then, explain the inherent disconnect between us as human and God as Other? Does that disconnect not at least imply sin -- or separation?

 

[doppelganger]

Well said and thank you for making the connection to 'the Law.' The only part I'm not sure I get is 'uncertainty of identity.' Do you mean the blurring or loss of distinction between ourselves and others, and/or ourselves and creation?

The loss of distinction of your perception of yourself as a thing that observes. By seeing your self as an integral and impossibly intertwined part of all of the Universe. Of course, to perceive that relationship is to still be one's self, but also to be aware of that as a useful construct. It is to be both fully human and fully divine.

 

[lunamoth]

The loss of distinction between your perception of yourself as a thing that observes rather than as an integral part of all of creation. Of course, to perceive that relationship is to still be one's self, but also to be aware of that as a useful construct. It is to be both fully human and fully divine.

 

[sojourner]

The loss of distinction of your perception of yourself as a thing that observes. By seeing your self as an integral and impossibly intertwined part of all of the Universe. Of course, to perceive that relationship is to still be one's self, but also to be aware of that as a useful construct. It is to be both fully human and fully divine.

I really like your explanation here. Good work!

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

How do you, then, explain the inherent disconnect between us as human and God as Other? Does that disconnect not at least imply sin -- or separation?

I do not believe there ever is a full disconnect, our souls are always part of/connected to, God.
Sin comes when we disconnect our selves from communion with God.
God never disconnects from us.


Nor do I agree that there is an "Inherent" disconnect beteen us and God.

 

[James Humphreys]

In one view, original sin is not when Eva ate the forbidden fruit, and it is not related to sexual intercourse, or some kind of stain humans are born with, but it is alienation from God, creation, and each other.

The 'cure' for original sin, thus, is to overcome that alienation. In this interpretation love is the means of atonement - at-one-ment.

I agree that there is an alienation from God, and that it is related to original sin. But the question arises, where did that alienation come from? Are we born with it? Is it our natural state? And I agree that the solution to the alienation has to do with love. But, if so, did anyone ever overcome that alienation from God completely? Is anyone here completely "at-one" with God? If not, what is the barrier?

I think this question can't be answered without looking at our origins. Are any animals besides homo sapiens alienated from God? When and how did this disconnect first arise?

 

[waitasec]

As I understand it, "original sin" is the "natural" state of humanity. That is, we are created good, but we're also created with free will. That's what it means to be created in the image of God -- that we have free will and are, like God, creative with our will. Since we have free will, we are not inexorably tied to God. That means there's an essential difference between us and God. We are human -- God is Other than human. It's that disconnect from God that constitutes sin -- not necessarily the bad stuff we do, or the "fact" that human beings are spiritually "dirty." We are simply essentially disconnected from God by virtue of free will.

Through free will, we can also choose to come back to God. Since this will never truly happen in our lifetime, it's not our state of being, but our state of will that's efficacious. In other words, God has given us grace. Humanity is under grace. We can either choose to act the part, or not.

so god wants trained animals?

 

[lunamoth]

I agree that there is an alienation from God, and that it is related to original sin. But the question arises, where did that alienation come from? Are we born with it?

One view is that it is the natural consequence of the arising of self-awareness/self-consciousness.

Is it our natural state?

It is a natural consequence, but that does not mean we can't grow/transform and 'overcome' the alienation.

And I agree that the solution to the alienation has to do with love. But, if so, did anyone ever overcome that alienation from God completely? Is anyone here completely "at-one" with God? If not, what is the barrier?

The barrier is our ego. As I think dopp is saying, we overcome it to the extent that we become aware of our unity with God, others, and creation. The manifestation and living out of this awareness is love. However, due to the persistence of our selves, our egos, we only do this in glimmers. The process of salvation, or enlightenment, then could be to live more and more in the awareness of our identity with creation/others/God.

 

[thedope]

In one view, original sin is not when Eva ate the forbidden fruit, and it is not related to sexual intercourse, or some kind of stain humans are born with, but it is alienation from God, creation, and each other.

The 'cure' for original sin, thus, is to overcome that alienation. In this interpretation love is the means of atonement - at-one-ment.

Very well. Sin being to miss the sign,(of god), is a distortion in perception. Where do we miss the sign of god, in our guilty brother.

satan was a liar from the beginning. It was not true, that as we are, we are unlike god without the knowledge of good and evil. The knowledge of good and evil is not knowledge but perception based on arbitrary judgment. In that arbitrary instant the wholeness or holiness of the kingdom is shattered perceptually. An error in perception does not change the real view, it just makes it obscure, hard to identify.

The son of god never usurped the power or true inheritance of gods children. God created man in his own image and likeness, both male and female creative principle, and saw that it was good, very good. We create worlds through our narrative.

 

[doppelganger]

The barrier is our ego. As I think dopp is saying, we overcome it to the extent that we become aware of our unity with God, others, and creation. The manifestation and living out of this awareness is love. However, due to the persistence of our selves, our egos, we only do this in glimmers. The process of salvation, or enlightenment, then could be to live more and more in the awareness of our identity with creation/others/God.

Very nicely put. :clap