Original sin

[Katzpur]

But not so open-minded that my brains fall out on the floor. I have refused to engage the missionaries on any revelations following the death of Moroni (the one who buried the plates, not the one who pointed them out to J. Smith).

The Moroni who showed Joseph Smith the plates was the same individual who buried them, Francine. You didn't get that?

 

[Evandr]

Look at the immediate consequences: they hid from their own Creator, their God who used to love to come speak to them in the cool of the evening. By disobeying God, they ripped apart the close relationship they had with him. And that estrangement was naturally passed down to all of us.

I hope you don't mind my chiming in but I think I might be able to add a thing or two to this discussion.

First, let me ask a question. What do you think the world would be like if Lucifer and his angles were not allowed to tempt us? I think the Lord's plan of salvation for us all could not be effected if it were so.

If Adam and Eve suddenly were aware of their nakedness it's because Lucifer pointed it out to them in an effort to get them to hide from the presence of God, in other words he tempted them. These feelings must have been very confusing to Adam and Eve and thusly they responded but in the end they faced the Lord.

It is true that the Lord no longer walks and talks physically with his children because Adam and Eve partook of the fruit but it was given to them to decide for themselves. Eve partook of the fruit first because she was beguiled by the serpent, wanting to have knowledge and Adam partook of the fruit because he realized that Eve was going to be cast out and he needed to stay with her so as to multiply and replenish the earth.

Neither action was really sin in it's purest sense because before partaking of the fruit both Adam and Eve did not know the meaning of Sin because they had no previous experience, they had no knowledge of good and evil and therefore there could be no consequences for their actions other than what they were told would happen. It seems to me that deeming people sinners just because they are born into the world because of what Adam and Eve did would be double jeopardy because Adam and Eve had no knowledge of what the state of their children would be because of their decision.

I take acceptation to the word estrangement. Adam and Eve were cast out and were made subject to the death of the body but their relationship with the Lord, though changed, was just as fervent. Adam was a prophet who taught all his family the Gospel. The Lord spoke with Adam as he also did with both Cain and Abel though probably not face-to-face, as was the case in the garden.

I have a personal relationship with my Heavenly Father that I could not possibly have had Adam and Eve not chose to take the route they did by getting themselves cast out of the Garden. For that I will be eternally thankful to them and glorify my Heavenly Father forever for his love and wisdom granted to all his children.

 

[Quiddity]

Okay, are you saying that the human condition is repaired through the baptism of each individual? I would say that the human condition was repaired through Christ's Atonement, and that our sins are repaired through His Atonement, our faith in Him, our baptism, and our continued repentance.

Without getting too deep into the salvation topic I’m going keep it short and say we do agree that Christ’s Atonement is what repairs the human condition. But notice I used “repairs” vs. “repaired”. You have to remember that Christ’s Atonement is a gift to humanity; which I’m sure you agree. The gift has to accepted and cause a change in you (remember, the order is not so important to us. You can have the gift cause a change in you first and then accept it. Which is how we typically do it.). We believe baptism begins the process of repairing the human condition.

No, I believe they were created pure and clean and did not have the propensity to sin until after the Fall. I don't think this quality was part of their immortal state (the state in which they existed while in Eden) but came to be a part of who they were when they disobeyed God and ate from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, thereby gaining understanding. I think that children are born in that same pure state, and that their propensity to sin comes as they become aware of the difference between good and evil.

Aha! Now I see why we can’t seem to agree. If I understand you correctly you seem to agree that the human condition was affected but you believe that the affect was the ability for humans to see the difference between good and evil? Do I have that right?

I'll deal with your interpretations in a later time.

 

[Katzpur]

Without getting too deep into the salvation topic I’m going keep it short and say we do agree that Christ’s Atonement is what repairs the human condition. But notice I used “repairs” vs. “repaired”. You have to remember that Christ’s Atonement is a gift to humanity; which I’m sure you agree. The gift has to accepted and cause a change in you (remember, the order is not so important to us. You can have the gift cause a change in you first and then accept it. Which is how we typically do it.). We believe baptism begins the process of repairing the human condition.

Thank you, Victor.

Aha! Now I see why we can’t seem to agree. If I understand you correctly you seem to agree that the human condition was affected but you believe that the affect was the ability for humans to see the difference between good and evil? Do I have that right?

I'd say that's pretty close.

 

[Evandr]

I have been watching this conversation with some interest and would like to add a consideration.

It seems that the whole idea is built around the question of when we become disposed to being sinners. Are we born with it or does it grow as our intelligence grows or maybe it grows according to the level of influence Satan exerts on us as we grow.

All good questions but I think something important is not being considered here, that is that we all had a pre-mortal existence and most certainly developed character traits of varying degrees during that time that plays a major roll in the level of our ability and/or desire to engage in sinful activity.

Although Christ was the Son of God in the flesh, his character in pre-mortality played a major roll in his mortal character so why could the same not be said for each of us. I believe that Adam and Eve were valiant servants of their Heavenly Father being close to Christ’s end of the spectrum but I also believe that no man, save children, is immune from being tempted by Satan especially a pair as innocent and void of experience as were Adam and Eve.

In pre-mortality you had Christ on one end of the spectrum and Lucifer on the other with the rest of the host of Heaven strewn in between. When Lucifer was cast out so went the lower 1/3. It is only reasonable to believe that there were some pretty rebellious individuals who managed not to get cast out but who's character carried over into mortality and made them predisposed to being some pretty unsavory individuals here. If so, the opposite must also be true, like that of Joseph Smith and all the other prophets the Lord has sent to the Earth.

In short, our pre-mortal character plays an important role in Lucifer's ability to tempt us here on earth - after all, having our metal tested in Lucifer's refining fires is the whole reason we're here.

 

[Francine]

It seems to me that deeming people sinners just because they are born into the world because of what Adam and Eve did would be double jeopardy because Adam and Eve had no knowledge of what the state of their children would be because of their decision.

A man and woman have five children. They stay together and raise their kids into their faith, give them nice gifts, and work hard to put them through college. All five children begin their working lives with a leg up. Each of them follow the example set by their parents and when they get married they, too, work things out to stay together so their children in turn will have material blessings and the ability to provide for their offspring.

A man and woman have five children. They think only of their own personal gratification and when things get a little rough they split up. The father moves over the state line a few miles away so he can keep the same job and all his buddies and mistresses while not paying a red cent to his ex (this is the 1970s). The mother was a career housewife, and she has no training or ability to earn income. She goes on the Welfare, and accepts things from the people at her church like used cars or milk straight from the cow, but it's not enough. The children don't have the nice things their friends at school have, like ten-speed bikes. When they turn 18, the Welfare is turned off, so the mother tells them to go out and get a job. All of them work in either construction or the busing-restaurant-tables industry. None of them go to college, and none of their own children go to college either. None of them did anything to deserve their fate, but they are defeated by the sin of their first parents.

 

[Evandr]

A man and woman have five children. They stay together and raise their kids into their faith, give them nice gifts, and work hard to put them through college. All five children begin their working lives with a leg up. Each of them follow the example set by their parents and when they get married they, too, work things out to stay together so their children in turn will have material blessings and the ability to provide for their offspring.

A man and woman have five children. They think only of their own personal gratification and when things get a little rough they split up. The father moves over the state line a few miles away so he can keep the same job and all his buddies and mistresses while not paying a red cent to his ex (this is the 1970s). The mother was a career housewife, and she has no training or ability to earn income. She goes on the Welfare, and accepts things from the people at her church like used cars or milk straight from the cow, but it's not enough. The children don't have the nice things their friends at school have, like ten-speed bikes. When they turn 18, the Welfare is turned off, so the mother tells them to go out and get a job. All of them work in either construction or the busing-restaurant-tables industry. None of them go to college, and none of their own children go to college either. None of them did anything to deserve their fate, but they are defeated by the sin of their first parents.

Not so. It is true that parents will have an influence on the success of failure of their children but you have compared apples to oranges.

In your analogy the parents have the ability to distinguish between right and wrong, they have the experiences of history and God given wisdom (thanks to the actions of Adam and Eve) to know the ramifications associated with their lifestyles and choices with regard to their children.

Also, successful people do come from unsuccessful parents and visa-versa. In each individual case the parents are cognitive of their actions and ability to influence family members. Also the children are endowed with free agency and a choice to rise up or fall down.

In the case of the consequences to the children by Adam and Eve's actions, the concept of "original sin" confers onto the children a punishment for which they had no choice or culpability and the parents had no knowledge that it could happen (because it doesn’t) or how they might have prevented it if it were to be true.

Again, the only consequences to Adam and Eve that were justified were the ones they were told about. It is so plain and so in keeping with the laws of justice and the infinitely loving condescension of God toward his children that it becomes unfathomable to me how anybody could believe in such a thing as original sin in the first place, let alone how innocent children could be labeled as sinners as a consequence.

Good grief! It's hard for me to even say let alone comprehend as true.... Labeling innocent children as sinners because of the actions of innocent parents… Do you really think our Heavenly Father would do that?

 

[roli]

The point in Christ dying for our sins was just that -- making it possible for us to be forgiven of sins we actually commit.

Your views don't come from scripture, do they?
It makes God out to be completely unreliable and somewhat confused and unstable if you do.
I mean if a book comes out supposedly from a man that had a revelation from God and it contradicts God's actual word, does that not cause concern with the unreliability of God.
Anyways....for those who may be looking on and according to scripture, we inherited the curse, the sin nature and death along with it. This was bestowed upon us through Adam.
I believe your using Mormon Catechism ,Nephi 2;25, Talmage DC page 65, Pearl of Great Price Moses 5:10-11
The bible says:
1Cr 15:22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
Rom 5:12Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Rom 5:17 For if by the one man's offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.)
Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one [judgment came] upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one [the free gift came] upon all men unto justification of life.For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

If Christ died for Adam's sins, too, why would God hold us responsible for them?

Sin was passed down through the blood line
That is something you can learn from scripture and on the day you see him, but it is made very clear in scripture

When I say that I believe we inherited Adam's propensity to sin, I mean only that as mortals, we are subject to temptation, and don't always have the will-power to resist.

We did'nt just receive the tendency to sin ,we received the curse and the nature that is corrupt and rejected by God, that is until we are spirituall born again

Being predisposed to sin is not itself a sin;

i
That's not what Paul says, through one man sin came and death came to all who sin.

 

[Katzpur]

Your views don't come from scripture, do they?

Every one of them, roli.

It makes God out to be completely unreliable and somewhat confused and unstable if you do.

Huh?

I mean if a book comes out supposedly from a man that had a revelation from God and it contradicts God's actual word, does that not cause concern with the unreliability of God.

Sure, if it contradicted God's word, that would be a real cause for concern. But since it doesn't, it isn't.

Anyways....for those who may be looking on and according to scripture, we inherited the curse, the sin nature and death along with it. This was bestowed upon us through Adam.

I guess Jesus didn't atone for Adam's sins after all, then, if we're still cursed.

I believe your using Mormon Catechism ,Nephi 2;25, Talmage DC page 65, Pearl of Great Price Moses 5:10-11

The Mormon Catechism? What the hell is that?

Sin was passed down through the blood line. That is something you can learn from scripture and on the day you see him, but it is made very clear in scripture.

We did'nt just receive the tendency to sin ,we received the curse and the nature that is corrupt and rejected by God, that is until we are spirituall born again

That's not what Paul says, through one man sin came and death came to all who sin.

Okay, thanks for your interpretation.

 

[Evandr]

we inherited the curse, the sin nature and death along with it. This was bestowed upon us through Adam.

There was no curse only consequence. The only thing we inherited from Adam and Eve were the genes that make us grow old and die as to the body, a fate that Our Heavenly Father realized was unjust so He sent His son to reverse that for all mankind. I Corinthians 15:21,22. "For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection from the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all shall be made alive."

I believe your using Mormon Catechism ,Nephi 2;25, Talmage DC page 65, Pearl of Great Price Moses 5:10-11

Say What?!?!

1Cr 15:22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

What does that have to do with being a sinner?

Rom 5:12Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Break it down:
"sin entered into the world" - says nothing about Adam's choice being a sin, just that sin entered into the world when they were cast out.

"and death by sin" - both death and sin reared their ugly heads after Adam and Eve were cast out.

"death passed upon all men" - Again, it had nothing to do with eating of the tree or inheriting a sinful nature- that’s just silly to contemplate, it has everything to do with inheriting mortality from Adam and Eve after the fact.

Rom 5:17 For if by the one man's offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.)

Just another way of saying what's in I Corinthians 15:21,22

Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one [judgment came] upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one [the free gift came] upon all men unto justification of life. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Men were made sinners by their own sins which, by the way encompass all men save Christ, not by any strange and obviously refutable view some have of Adams taking of the fruit as being a sin that morphed into a curse passed onto all men making them sinners from birth. "Guilty until made innocent is not a precept of God", "innocent until guilty and then made clean again" is.

Sin was passed down through the blood line

That's the strangest thing I have ever heard, you cannot possibly expect an intelligent individual to believe that... can you?

We didn’t just receive the tendency to sin ,we received the curse and the nature that is corrupt and rejected by God, that is until we are spiritual born again

We didn't receive anything from Adam other than our mortality. Any tendency to sin we developed on our own during our pre-mortal existence. It's pretty obvious by your comments here that you don't fully understand what it means to be born again,

That's not what Paul says, through one man sin came and death came to all who sin.

Sin did come through one man because one man was the first man and he got cast out of the garden and fathered humanity and all are and were and will be guilty of sin but not by anything Adam Did!

 

[Evandr]

we inherited the curse, the sin nature and death along with it. This was bestowed upon us through Adam.

There was no curse only consequence. The only thing we inherited from Adam and Eve were the genes that make us grow old and die as to the body, a fate that Our Heavenly Father realized was unjust so He sent His son to reverse that for all mankind. I Corinthians 15:21,22. "For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection from the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all shall be made alive."

I believe your using Mormon Catechism ,Nephi 2;25, Talmage DC page 65, Pearl of Great Price Moses 5:10-11

Say What?!?!

1Cr 15:22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

What does that have to do with being a sinner?

Rom 5:12Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Break it down:
"sin entered into the world" - says nothing about Adam's choice being a sin, just that sin entered into the world when they were cast out.
"and death by sin" - both death and sin reared their ugly heads after Adam and Eve were cast out.
"death passed upon all men" - Again, it had nothing to do with eating of the tree or inheriting a sinful nature- that’s just silly to contemplate, it has everything to do with inheriting mortality from Adam and Eve after the fact.

Rom 5:17 For if by the one man's offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.)

Just another way of saying what's in I Corinthians 15:21,22

Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one [judgment came] upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one [the free gift came] upon all men unto justification of life. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Men were made sinners by their own sins which, by the way encompass all men save Christ, not by any strange and obviously refutable view some have of Adams taking of the fruit as being a sin that morphed into a curse passed onto all men making them sinners from birth. "Guilty until made innocent is not a precept of God", "innocent until guilty and then made clean again" is.

Sin was passed down through the blood line

That's the strangest thing I have ever heard, you cannot possibly expect an intelligent individual to believe that... can you?

We didn’t just receive the tendency to sin ,we received the curse and the nature that is corrupt and rejected by God, that is until we are spiritual born again

We didn't receive anything from Adam other than our mortality. Any tendency to sin we developed on our own during our pre-mortal existence. It's pretty obvious by your comments here that you don't fully understand what it means to be born again,

That's not what Paul says, through one man sin came and death came to all who sin.

Sin did come through one man because one man was the first man and he got cast out of the garden and fathered humanity and all are and were and will be guilty of sin but not by anything Adam Did!

 

[Quiddity]

I'd say that's pretty close.

Ok...then I can't see how LDS theology can work unless you guys recognize that God created Adam and Even incomplete. We couldn't possibly be complete unless God already created us (before the fall) with the ability to understand such things. You following me?

 

[Katzpur]

Ok...then I can't see how LDS theology can work unless you guys recognize that God created Adam and Even incomplete.

Well, according to the scriptures, they had to partake of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and evil in order to gain that knowledge, so that would make them "incomplete." (I'm not sure I would have used that word, but I suppose it's as good as any.)

 

[cardero]

Islam doesnt credit the idea of 'original sin'.

Patrickism also does not acknowledge the legacy or the inheritance of original sin. I am perfectly capable of designing and coming up with my own sins, thank you.

 

[Francine]

Patrickism also does not acknowledge the legacy or the inheritance of original sin. I am perfectly capable of designing and coming up with my own sins, thank you.

I think I found a verse that teaches Patrickism then.

Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Patrickism also does not acknowledge the legacy or the inheritance of original sin. I am perfectly capable of designing and coming up with my own sins, thank you.

But as a testament to your creativity, I'm sure that your sins would be very original!

 

[cardero]

I think I found a verse that teaches Patrickism then.

Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Actually this one is more in reason to Patrickism:

I have assured everyONE that your Soul is ETERNAL and quite safe from and with ME.
This is a PROMISE to YOU from ME. For I tell YOU that I AM not a GOD of destruction but a GOD of LOVE and creation and perfection. To do damage to YOU would BE like inflicting damage on MYself. This is not GOD-like.

HELLO IT'S ME: An Interview With GOD
Chapter: Armageddon and the Apocalypse
Pg: 78

 

[Quiddity]

Well, according to the scriptures, they had to partake of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and evil in order to gain that knowledge, so that would make them "incomplete." (I'm not sure I would have used that word, but I suppose it's as good as any.)

I'd like to read where it says "they had to" partake of the Tree in order to gain knowledge of good and evil.

 

[Evandr]

Ok...then I can't see how LDS theology can work unless you guys recognize that God created Adam and Even incomplete. We couldn't possibly be complete unless God already created us (before the fall) with the ability to understand such things. You following me?

The completion of something being developed often comes in stages. This journey we call life, where we came from, why we are here, and where we are going is to give growth to the individuals where growth can be had.

Adam And Eve had complete physical bodies but had much to learn. The level of completeness that you allude to is that of God, a level we are all striving to achieve but have yet to succeed.

Without a history of experiences to draw on, Adam and Eve could not grow emotionally and emotion is prerequisite to being responsible for ones actions and the choices made. Partaking of the fruit gave them emotions they had not yet experienced; it completed them emotionally; they had become ready to be the first parents to all humanity.

The Garden was their last area of preparation before they could become the instrument by which man may be, the conditions of the garden were no longer necessary and even could be counter productive, much like a butterfly that fails to emerge from the cocoon will die; it was too perfect an environment in which stagnation would thrive. It had become time for the conditions to exist wherein the third level of completion may be effected - intellectual, a process requiring obstacles and trials not found in the Garden of Eden.

 

[Evandr]

I'd like to read where it says "they had to" partake of the Tree in order to gain knowledge of good and evil.

It doesn't have to come right out and say it, it’s obvious. Adam was made Lord over all the Earth and had no restrictions, save one. Anything he found himself wanting to do was OK. He was not capable of rage because there was nothing that could make him mad, He simply existed for the sake of existence save for one thing - the key to knowledge and a commandment which he was given the choice to adhere to or set aside.
Yes, most certainly Adam HAD TO partake of the tree in order to gain a knowledge of good and evil, God even said it was so, for that matter, so did Lucifer!

How many issues can you think of where God and Lucifer were in agreement?