Origins of god/gods

[Jollybear]

As usual you remove words form it’s sorounding matter In order to distort its meaning. I’m done

So im distorting the meaning of what you said huh?

The reason i qouted just that section is because its relavent to my question.

Instead of saying im distorting your words, why not answer my question which was AGAIN

Did you mean by this that ALL believers in God/gods/afterlife believe ONLY for comfort? Or do SOME people who believe NOT find it comforting?

A question is not DISTORTING the meaning of the others words. A question is asking the other to clarify the meaning of there own words.

Good grief. I cant believe i even gotta explain that to you. Is this some kind of joke or game your playing?

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Ok, i see what your saying about hulucinations. But, those so called hulucinations are experiences. People dont "make them up".

But, what about those veridical experiences?

What i mean is, some folk experience something in the spirit world, then verify something accurate in the physical world pertaining to the experience.

Some may call this psychic. What about these type experiences?

I have nothing to say about "these type experiences," for the simple reason that you've given me something so non-specific there is nothing to comment on.

We've all heard the stories, told in courtrooms, about parents who have murdered their children claiming, "I was told to do it!" Well, what should I say about that? Do you know of an entity that would give that sort of command? And just to make it a little more difficult, do you know of such an entity so powerful that an omnipotent -- as well as loving and caring -- deity, would let it happen? How could you begin explaining such things?

When you give me an actual example, with real and verified documentary evidence, for such "experiences," I will consider and respond. In the meantime, I still know of many things that cause actual people to experience -- in a way that is completely real to them -- things that have not happened. Look up agnosia, hemi-spatial neglect, aphasia and blindsight. Or perhaps Dr. Oliver Sacks.

 

[Jollybear]

I have nothing to say about "these type experiences," for the simple reason that you've given me something so non-specific there is nothing to comment on.

We've all heard the stories, told in courtrooms, about parents who have murdered their children claiming, "I was told to do it!" Well, what should I say about that? Do you know of an entity that would give that sort of command? And just to make it a little more difficult, do you know of such an entity so powerful that an omnipotent -- as well as loving and caring -- deity, would let it happen? How could you begin explaining such things?

When you give me an actual example, with real and verified documentary evidence, for such "experiences," I will consider and respond. In the meantime, I still know of many things that cause actual people to experience -- in a way that is completely real to them -- things that have not happened. Look up agnosia, hemi-spatial neglect, aphasia and blindsight. Or perhaps Dr. Oliver Sacks.

The way i would begin by explaining it is the spirit realm is as complicated as the physical realm is.

Theres evil as well as good spirits there, just as theres good as well as evil people in the physical world.

And why would a all powerful God allow it?

I hate to sound so simple, but its a strong point to consider, FREE WILL.

Why such freedom?

Well simply put, without it, wed all be robots AND if there wer no evil how could we apreciate the good? If theres no trials, how could we be stronger? How could we even respect the process of life?

Im sure these points you may likely have already heard, but i think they bear much weight to consider.

Yes, evil and trials suck. I hate them in my own life and believe me, ive had my share and i REALLY dont like them. But, even with them, i still adhere to the points above.

 

[Sleeppy]

the oldest superstition known to mankind, which survives to this day in the form of global cooling/warming etc

Bias.

Are you implying ecosystems are wholly unaffected by human interaction? Pretty absurd.

 

[syo]

Evolution therefore created the first gods

gods created evolution.

 

[Jollybear]

Sure,

Let's say a demon did appear and masqueraded as a God. Lacking knowledge of actual God folks would be pretty easy to fool. Such a demon could have appeared to Moses or any other, otherwise, sincere, leader of their people and claimed to be the one and only God.

Since they didn't have any information to contradict the claims made and the interaction with the demon itself would seem miraculous enough, they wouldn't be hard to fool.

My view, without knowledge of a "true" God, how can I trust myself to differentiate between a true God and a false God? Best not to go out on a limb to follow any God since there being so many false Gods, it's more likely than not that I end up choosing the wrong God to follow.

Point taken, but, what if refusing to follow all or any God comes with consequences?

By rejecting all gods under the fear of deception, one rejects the true God too.

Thus we throw out the baby with the dirty bath water.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

The way i would begin by explaining it is the spirit realm is as complicated as the physical realm is.

Theres evil as well as good spirits there, just as theres good as well as evil people in the physical world.

And why would a all powerful God allow it?

I hate to sound so simple, but its a strong point to consider, FREE WILL.

Why such freedom?

Well simply put, without it, wed all be robots AND if there wer no evil how could we apreciate the good? If theres no trials, how could we be stronger? How could we even respect the process of life?

Im sure these points you may likely have already heard, but i think they bear much weight to consider.

Yes, evil and trials suck. I hate them in my own life and believe me, ive had my share and i REALLY dont like them. But, even with them, i still adhere to the points above.

You have missed my point completely. You've just made a significant number of definitive statements about "the spirit realm," about "good and evil spirits," and so on -- yet you've not provided a single example that we can look at and judge for ourselves.

If you cannot, in any way, point to a spirit (whether good or evil), how can you honestly claim that one exists?

 

[Jollybear]

You have missed my point completely. You've just made a significant number of definitive statements about "the spirit realm," about "good and evil spirits," and so on -- yet you've not provided a single example that we can look at and judge for ourselves.

If you cannot, in any way, point to a spirit (whether good or evil), how can you honestly claim that one exists?

My response was merily a simple explanation.

But, if you want, we can discuss this recent near death experience ive read. I think its a good example of the afterlife and the souls existence.

Lacee T NDE 8497

The reason i think this is a good one is because its not a regular near death experience, its veridical. Meaning the experiencer gains information from the spirit realm/afterlife that they then verify in the natural realm and it aligns with reality. The info they gained they had no other way of knowing from a natural standpoint.

In lacees case, she and her husband got into a accident and lacee spoke to her husband who told her hed wait for her and that she had to return to take care of there boys.

She did not yet know naturally her husband officially died. When she returned, later it was told her he died. She already knew though.

Veridical near death experiences RULE OUT hallucination.

 

[Muffled]

Why do you believe I am lying but others who have visions aren't? What is the standard by which you judge True/False?

I believe first of all you did not say that you had a vision but that you met them. A vision is not a meeting. Second not all visions present things as they actually are. Sometimes they are simply symbolic or fantastic. The vision Daniel had of a beast that was gold and had clay feet was symbolic. The symbols stood for real events but the beast pictured never existed.

 

[Muffled]

Whatever happened to comparing Hinduism with Bible by the way?

I believe that is on a different thread. Why can't I just bury things that belong to a person as a matter of respect for the person. It is a supposition that the intention was for the person to use them in the afterlife. I suppose if one is extending the Egyptian beilief in the aftelife it would make sense but then how would one make the connection. I am most likely supposing that the Eguptian belief in the afterlife was not practiced by earlier cultures but I do not know the history of it except that I am aware that primordial Egyptian culture was different from the culture that had the Pharaohs.

 

[sayak83]

I believe that is on a different thread. Why can't I just bury things that belong to a person as a matter of respect for the person. It is a supposition that the intention was for the person to use them in the afterlife. I suppose if one is extending the Egyptian beilief in the aftelife it would make sense but then how would one make the connection. I am most likely supposing that the Eguptian belief in the afterlife was not practiced by earlier cultures but I do not know the history of it except that I am aware that primordial Egyptian culture was different from the culture that had the Pharaohs.

Every culture and Aboriginal tribes who bury dead with grave goods have beliefs that these goods will be of use in the afterlife. The goods usually quite precious, without belief in afterlife, they would be in continued use by sons/relatives like any other wealth.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

Point taken, but, what if refusing to follow all or any God comes with consequences?

The consequences only come from the whim of the god in question, and the god COULD decide that the human has a point and be mature about it.

 

[Jollybear]

The consequences only come from the whim of the god in question, and the god COULD decide that the human has a point and be mature about it.

What if for one of the gods its not about whims or letting the humans do there own thing? What if its about justice?

I believe in God, a theistic God, a creator of the universe. From what i can see, he set up the system where our OWN ACTIONS REAP the benefits or the consequences of said actions.

In this respect, he created the universe along with its system where he does not need to be this slanted eye big man with a white beard, pointing his finger at us like a judge in a court room.

Rather, he uses the system and our own actions along with there benefits or consequences to judge us. But, again, its not a judgement like a harsh human judge would do. Its different.

Your thoughts?

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

What if for one of the gods its not about whims or letting the humans do there own thing? What if its about justice?

But the god decides what is justice. If truly objective, God would have to follow justice, and we see that He's more than willing to treat it like a farce. Kill a guy trying to steady a box and spare rapists. Yeah. "Justice."

 

[Jollybear]

But the god decides what is justice. If truly objective, God would have to follow justice, and we see that He's more than willing to treat it like a farce. Kill a guy trying to steady a box and spare rapists. Yeah. "Justice."

Well, what if he allows freedom of choice, and some of those choices lead to bad consequences. But if the bad choice dont lead to a bad consequence, then in the afterlife the rapist will pay for his crime. Some rapists get cought and go to jail now. So, theres there consequences.

The guy trying to steady a box was not killed by God but by his own stupid choice in how he was steadying it.

 

[Buddha Dharma]

Did you mean by this that ALL believers in God/gods/afterlife believe ONLY for comfort? Or do SOME people who believe NOT find it comforting?

I'd like to know this as well. Been awhile since I visited this thread.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

Well, what if he allows freedom of choice, and some of those choices lead to bad consequences.

But He made the consequences.

 

[Jollybear]

But He made the consequences.

Yes, he did make the system/consequences. Which, thats not a bad thing because it teaches us that evil or stupid actions dont pay.

 

[Jollybear]

I'd like to know this as well. Been awhile since I visited this thread.

Yea, im still wanting Prometheus to answer this question. He is pretty adament about not answering it. He just wants to dance around the question.

 

[Buddha Dharma]

Yea, im still wanting Prometheus to answer this question. He is pretty adament about not answering it. He just wants to dance around the question.

Well of course he does. He made this thread to smear believers in things beyond material by painting us as cowards and childish.