Origins of the Quran/Islam - various academic perspectives

[outhouse]

I'm not asking for excuses, I'm not asking for a copy paste job, I'm not asking for another question, nor a link.


I'm asking for YOUR HONESTY.

I'm SIMPLY asking for YOUR opinion based on the academic understanding

WHERE did Muhammad collect this text that would later become the koran?

 

[Shad]

Is asking where muhammad collected his material, that is not a statement of the koran being copied.

No. Keep in mind the religious belief in authorship, the Quran acknowledge this many times by references to previous scriptures. The Quran becomes a commentary or a compilation. Evidence linking specifics in the Quran with man-made commentary just shows an incorrect citation not plagiarism.

I have never implied a single source. ONLY the possibility of one of many sources.

Sorry I was still following your Waraqa arguement

WHERE did Muhammad collect this heretical text that would later become the koran?

It could range from Arabia to Syria along with the habitable areas between.

So a real answer might be, from Christian and Jewish communities who did not follow the orthodox methods of typical worship.

AGREED????

Sure but that does not make it plagiarism. Muhammad could have actually believed in some of these heretical views himself before prophethood. These views could be part of his upbringing due to his environment. Just as any other member of a family which teaches religion to their children. The children learn from their parents rather than from the direct author or source material. After all I was taught some core ideas of Christianity before I was capable of reading the bible on any serious level. Again this just turns into a religious belief rather than fraud.

 

[Shad]

Which is fine, it probably took decades to collect the text.


So a real answer might be, from Christian and Jewish communities who did not follow the orthodox methods of typical worship.

All the links OP has provided have stated we don't know, he has only provided a few cherry picked articles that say we don't know.

So I'm providing what we do know.

No, many of links show many of the verses reflect various religioous views that existed already. It creates a picture of an environment you seem to want to use at one point then dismiss when it is within a counter-argument.

 

[Kirran]

Just to throw in: I think it very feasible that Muhammad received genuine insight, revelation, through experience of God (similar to the manner in which people talk of Jesus having done so, in addition to endless Hindu, Buddhist, Sikh etc mystics and saints) which he then spoke of, following which they were put into words as we now know them in the Qur'an, by him and others. So the information contained within the Qur'an could be said fairly to be revelation, but the context within which it is housed, the particular wording and some of the other stuff put in there with it, especially during the rather mutable period when it wasn't yet written, is not.

As I understand it, there are some liberal Muslims who take a broadly similar view.

 

[outhouse]

many of links show many of the verses reflect various religions views that existed already.

Agreed.

But the foundation factually is the Abrahamic tradition.

It is create a picture of an environment you seem to want to use at one point then dismiss when it is within a counter-argument.

No, I agree about the environment, that why I have not debated against it.

The Quran becomes a commentary or a compilation. Evidence linking specifics in the Quran with man-made commentary just shows an incorrect citation not plagiarism.

That is non sequitur to the question of where he collected the material that would be the koran

It could range from Arabia to Syria along with the habitable areas between.

Thank you.

That's what I'm asking for. It is a place we can build from.

It could also be where he was raised, and where he traveled.

Sure but that does not make it plagiarism.

Non sequitur

We are not debating the process of how the text went from bible to koran.

We are talking about the possible origin of his traditions from Christian and Jewish communities who did not follow the orthodox methods of typical worship.

Agreed?

These views could be part of his upbringing due to his environment. Just as any other member of a family which teaches religion to their children

Yes, I have stated this all along

The children learn from their parents rather than from the direct author or source material.

Exactly

After all I was taught some core ideas of Christianity before I was capable of reading the bible on any serious level. Again this just turns into a religious belief rather than fraud.

As was I.

I am not claiming fraud. Fraud is telling a lie. I have never claimed muhammad lied or intended to lie. Not where I'm going here.

You answered in full honesty, and I thank you.

 

[outhouse]

I think it very feasible that Muhammad received genuine insight, revelation, through experience of God

Some of the text indicates no vision was required.

Another name for vision is simply thoughts inside a conscious mind. There is no such thing as genuine insight, that is not a substantiated or credible academic position.

 

[Augustus]

You answered in full honesty, and I thank you.

Good grief Charlie Brown.

I got accused of being some form of lying, nefarious Muslim apologist with a biased agenda now you are thanking other people for expressing similar views to me?

As I asked you to before, keep an open mind

[before you start your reflex action to attack me, go back to post#2]

 

[outhouse]

There simply isn't enough evidence to make nice clear predictions with any degree of certainty

That is YOUR non answer from post #2


The only thing you can say about jesus is baptism and death in that context



But we all go in much further then certainty. Plausibility is the rule here, not certainty.


What is certain is he collected a heretical version of the Abrahamic traditions

 

[outhouse]

I got accused

For failure to answer simple question in context and NEVER directly.

I'm not asking for excuses, I'm not asking for a copy paste job, I'm not asking for another question, nor a link.

I'm SIMPLY asking for YOUR opinion based on the academic understanding.

WHERE did Muhammad collect this text that would later become the koran?

When did the text become so important, it must be gathered up?

Who taught him?

 

[Augustus]

What is certain is he collected a heretical version of the Abrahamic traditions

Once again, it's like the last 10 posts didn't happen...

 

[Augustus]

For failure to answer simple question in context and NEVER directly.

I'm not asking for excuses, I'm not asking for a copy paste job, I'm not asking for another question, nor a link.

I'm SIMPLY asking for YOUR opinion based on the academic understanding.

WHERE did Muhammad collect this text that would later become the koran?

When did the text become so important, it must be gathered up?

Who taught him?

Did you read the first 2 posts?

The real problem here is you absolute refusal to make any attempt to understand the various academic perspectives. You want a simple answer when none exist.

People far more knowledgable than me or you are trying to put the jigsaw together, but there are countless hurdles.

Until you move beyond the Waraqa/plagiarism paradigm it is impossible to discuss the issue with you in a reasonable manner.

If you want to discuss it, read post 2 and comment on what it actually says, rather than simply engaging in bluster.

 

[outhouse]

WHERE did Muhammad collect this text that would later become the koran?

When did the text become so important, it must be gathered up?

Who taught him?

 

[paarsurrey]

WHERE did Muhammad collect this text that would later become the koran?
When did the text become so important, it must be gathered up?
Who taught him?

Allah taught Muhammad. I did not know one would be so uninformed, sorry. Please
Regards

 

[outhouse]

Allah taught Muhammad.

Factually not academic.

 

[paarsurrey]

Factually not academic.

Religion has got nothing to do with the academic, the academia are quacks in religion:

[4:114]And but for the grace of Allah upon thee and His mercy, a party of them had resolved to bring about thy ruin. And they ruin none but themselves and they cannot harm thee at all. Allah has sent down to thee the Book and Wisdom and has taught thee what thou knewest not, and great is Allah’s grace on thee.​

http://www.alislam.org/quran/search2/showChapter.php?submitCh=Read+from+verse:&ch=4&verse=113

Regards

 

[outhouse]

the academia are quacks in religion.

You only think this because they expose the truth you hate.

It is typical for many religious people to hate truth and knowledge and education.

 

[outhouse]

Uh Oh academia raises its ugly head

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Muhammad

John Wansbrough believes that the Qu’ran is a redaction in part of other sacred scriptures, in particular the Judaeo-Christian scriptures.


And we all know redaction can be a form of plagiarism

https://student.unsw.edu.au/common-forms-plagiarism

Piecing together quotes and paraphrases into a new whole, without appropriate referencing.

Changing a few words and phrases while mostly retaining the original structure and/or progression of ideas of the original, and information without acknowledgement.

 

[Augustus]

Seems like we read the same material

Have you read this? It's worth a look if you haven't.

The Syriac milieu of the Quran: The recasting of Biblical narratives
Witzum, Jospeh (via proquest)

 

[paarsurrey]

You only think this because they expose the truth you hate.
It is typical for many religious people to hate truth and knowledge and education.

There is no source with history more reliable of times of Muhammad than the Quran. An historian cannot write history besides the source from the thin air. It is for this that I say that in matters of religion the historians are just quacks and they know it. Please
Regards

 

[Shad]

But the foundation factually is the Abrahamic tradition.

Sure, but it could also be part of Muhammad own tradition in which he was raised.

No, I agree about the environment, that why I have not debated against it.

Yet you claim it is plagiarism. How does one plagiarize their own traditions?

That is non sequitur to the question of where he collected the material that would be the koran

My comment was a reply to a question. "Is asking where muhammad collected his material, that is not a statement of the koran being copied." I said "No". The part you quoted was covering an audience, thus environment, I brought up regarding religious authorship as a religious belief. Taking this religious belief in authorship into account Allah is cited repeatedly as the author. Now this belief has shown to be wrong considering the Talmud commentary is not from God. It makes the citation wrong but not plagiarism

That's what I'm asking for. It is a place we can build from.

Place(s) which are addressed in many of Augustus' links.

It could also be where he was raised, and where he traveled.

I addressed this by mentioning Arabia, the area in which he lived and was raised, along with Syria, a supposed area he traveled to as a merchant. There is also the former Nabatean kingdom which had a Christian population before it's collapse. It was used as a crossroad for inland trade.

Non sequitur

Actually no it isn't as I was preemptively cutting at a conclusion you will have made for plagiarism

We are not debating the process of how the text went from bible to koran.

Yes we are when we are using previous work, environment and audience to establish whether Muhammad plagiarized or not. To even call it plagiarism is to establish the very process you deny talking about

We are talking about the possible origin of his traditions from Christian and Jewish communities who did not follow the orthodox methods of typical worship.

Yes but that includes the process. How, where, when and by who were this "heretical" beliefs developed. How, where, when and by who did these ideas become part of Islam.

Yes, I have stated this all along

But that isn't plagiarism

I am not claiming fraud. Fraud is telling a lie. I have never claimed muhammad lied or intended to lie. Not where I'm going here.

Then you should stop using the term plagiarized as it means fraud

You answered in full honesty, and I thank you.

I didn't say much that was different from Augustus. I just included a context of what was believed by the people in regards to authorship. This just establish a citation was in error as per the Talmud commentary taken as God authored.