-
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:- Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
- Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
- Access to private conversations with other members.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
Orthodox and Dogs
- Thread starter xkatz
- Start date
Rakhel
Well-Known Member
Why would one not be permitted to walk a dog on Shabbat? Is it the carrying of the lease or something like that?
xkatz
Well-Known Member
Well I think it would be prohibited since walking it would technically be work from an Orthodox perspective. But I may be wrong of course.
David_2010
Member
What about if you don't see walking your dog as work, but, get a lot of enjoyment out of it?.
Levite
Higher and Higher
You know, it's a great question. Since my wife and I keep a dog, I was actually looking into this halakhic question myself. The issue is not that walking the dog per se is forbidden work, but that carrying the leash and/or waste disposal bags may be forbidden, since unless one is within the perimeter of an eruv, one cannot carry outside on Shabbat.
There's basically three answers, as far as I can tell.
The easiest one is if one lives within the perimeter of anhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eruv eruv you have no problem. Carrying is permitted within the eruv, no matter what one may be carrying or how far within the eruv, so as long as one walks the dog within the eruv, there is no issue.
Now, if one does not live within the perimeter of an eruv, there seem to be several schools of thought, but I will confine myself to two, which seem to be the clearest. First is the Haredi view, which comes from the school of the Chofetz Chaim, and their answer is basically that if one lives outside of an eruv, and one is not able to simply let the dog out of the house into an enclosed yard that it can make use of, then one ought not to keep a dog at all.
The second is actually an opinion by Rabbi Aaron Alexander, of the Conservative movement, though I know several Modern Orthodox rabbis who have agreed with him. And that is that dogs, just like many other animals, and also small children, fall under the principle of chayah nosei et atzmo ("a living creature is able to move by itself"), which traditionally has been significant only in the sense of small children being permissible to carry on the Shabbat, seeing that, in theory, they are able to walk under their own power. But it would also be true that, in an area without leash laws, if one had a dog that was recovering from a wound in the leg, and thus could not presently walk under its own power, one would be permitted to carry it outdoors on Shabbat in order for it to perform its natural functions, because in theory, the dog can walk of its own accord. So, by this line of reasoning, we can say that a leash, being attached to the dog's collar, is actually something that is being worn by the dog as ornamentation; and the person can hold their end of the leash outside an eruv on Shabbat because the leash is part of what the dog is wearing, which is halakhically part of the dog.
However, it should be noted that this covers only the leash itself; it is unclear under this rule whether it would also inclue the waste disposal bags that some municipalities require dog owners to use. So one would have to have one of those leashes that has a roll of such bags built into the handle. Now, if one is Conservative, that is the end of the story. But if one is Orthodox, the next issue is that such bags on a roll are perforated, but only lightly, meaning that some may say that detaching one bag from the roll counts as tearing, which is a kind of work forbidden on Shabbat. So for those individuals, they would have to tear off several bags prior to Shabbat, and loosely tie them onto the handle, where they could be easily untied when needed. In any case, one would have to be careful not to walk more than four amot (roughly six feet) in the process of untying the bag, collecting the waste, and disposing of it, given that that is the maximum amount that one may carry outside an eruv on Shabbat.
And, by the way, since we're talking about pet halakhah, it's worth mentioning that there are two solutions for keeping a pet on Pesach (Passover), given that pet food is entirely chametz (not kosher for Passover).
First is to either get rid of the pet food entirely before Pesach, or sell the pet food along with one's regular chametz, and hide it away with the regular chametz. Then, during Pesach, one feeds the pet table scraps, meat, fish, or whatever human food is suitable for it.
The other option is to sell both the pet food and the pet itself along with one's regular chametz (since most of us have our rabbi sell our chametz along with that of the entire community, one need only tell the rabbi in advance to add in one's pet/s). In doing so, one then need not put the pet food away, but can continue feeding it to the pet over Pesach, because for the duration of the holiday, one is actually not the legal owner of the pet, but is legally the caretaker of a non-Jew's pet. And since the non-Jew, to whom the chametz was sold, is not obligated to observe the Pesach; and since to not take care of the pet for the non-Jew would be tzaar baalei chayim (cruelty to animals) and would be doing ill-service to the non-Jew, one is permitted to feed the pet its normal food, without the food being considered to be chametz not permissible to have in one's household.
Last edited:
Rakhel
Well-Known Member
Actually there is Kosher for Pesach pet food.
For Cats and Dogs: Science Diet, Prescription Diet and Evangers
Kashrut.com has a PDF listing of Korsher for Pesach pet foods(among others), but it also depends on which hechsher you follow.
just in case people want to look http://www.kashrut.com/Passover/
For Cats and Dogs: Science Diet, Prescription Diet and Evangers
Kashrut.com has a PDF listing of Korsher for Pesach pet foods(among others), but it also depends on which hechsher you follow.
just in case people want to look http://www.kashrut.com/Passover/
Last edited by a moderator:
You really need to stop offering your commentary in this DIR...You obviously have no clue what is defined as "work" in Jewish law.
Levite
Higher and Higher
Thank you for noting this, and the comment that I am about to make is in no way about you, but is entirely about the creation of kosher for Pesach pet food, which is halakhically superfluous, and emblematic of a pervasive increase in stricture in certain circles of Orthodoxy:
Yosi, my friend, with nothing but respect for you, and sympathy for your very proper motivation to want to keep the DIR clearly responsive Jewishly, I think that's just a little harsh. David's been pretty up front about the fact that he's just learning, in the process of approaching possible conversion; and his question is one that many secular Jews who have not been traditionally educated might ask. You're totally right that the halakhah just doesn't work that way, but if people don't ask, they can't be taught otherwise.... I hope I have not offended you by saying this.
Last edited:
Rakhel
Well-Known Member
My former rabbi has a sister married to a Chabadnick in Israel. One year he went to visit her and decided to take them out to eat. They had to pass restaurant after restaurant until they came to the only one that his brother-in-law would enter. All because of the Hechsher and the rabbi who certified it. Our rabbi found it a bit ridiculous, being a reform rabbi. As far as he was concerned, a hechsher was a hechsher was a hechesher.Thank you for noting this, and the comment that I am about to make is in no way about you, but is entirely about the creation of kosher for Pesach pet food, which is halakhically superfluous, and emblematic of a pervasive increase in stricture in certain circles of Orthodoxy:
We also have a chabadnick friend who will only get his milk at a certain store, because his rabbi does not approve of OU milk.
And while Hebrew National Hotdogs have been certified by Star-K most Orthodox won't touch them because they lost their OU status.
Levite
Higher and Higher
I'll go you one better. One of my granddad's friends is a dentist in Flatbush, and he says that every year before Pesach, not only do crowds of Haredim come to him for a dental cleanings (in case any tiny particles of chametz might be trapped in their teeth), but he ever has some Hasidim come to him who want all their dental work (braces, crowns, etc.) replaced completely, in case any micro-particles of chametz might have worked their way inside, where a regular cleaning wouldn't get them.
Levite
Higher and Higher
Simple: they were in the desert, so all they were eating was manna. Manna clearly is not chametz, and it didn't stick to the teeth, because it was a gift of God!
(That is Modern Orthodox humor, for those who haven't been exposed to it before...)
xkatz
Well-Known Member
Thank you for noting this, and the comment that I am about to make is in no way about you, but is entirely about the creation of kosher for Pesach pet food, which is halakhically superfluous, and emblematic of a pervasive increase in stricture in certain circles of Orthodoxy:
I wholeheartedly agree. Having kosher animal food is completely frivolous and over the top. Other creatures are not required to follow Halakhic law whatsoever. There is no Biblical or Talmudic basis for it and it is certainly not a commandment or anything.
Last edited:
Levite
Higher and Higher
Sure. The issue, though was never whether the pet should keep kosher or not, but whether we Jews would be permitted to own chametz pet food during Pesach, when we are prohibited to own chametz of any kind.
But the halakhah long since established perfectly reasonable and easy ways to solve this problem, none of which involve either the labor of creating kosher for Pesach pet food, or the expense to pet owners who think that they need to purchase it.
One of the ugliest aspects of the organized kashrut industry, especially in America, is the willingness of Haredi manufacturers, mashgichim (kashrut inspectors), and supervising rabbis to either create halakhic chumrot (strictures) or create the illusion of halakhic chumrot, in order to fleece the uneducated, or those who fear peer pressure from their communities about observance, into paying money for things that, halakhically, there is no need for. An ugly set of practices that rears out of control around Pesach.
It is an unforgivable perversion of Torah and respect for one's fellow Jews and their halakhic choices.
David_2010
Member
Thanks Levite, that's actually why I asked the question, because I am very interested in Judaism as a spiritual path, and I want to learn as much as I can about it.
Yet you don't bother reading any Torah(where work is defined) or read a simple web site, like Judaism 101 . Please, before you throw your commentary in, please know what you're talking about. With that, I just remembered that I've forgotten to put on Tefillin this morning. Lehitra'ot
Last edited: