Other sheep I have...

[paarsurrey]

paarsurrey said: ↑
" Those who have died never return. "
I agree with one here on what I have colored in magenta, please.

But Paarsurrey, was not Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, the returning Jesus, the Mahdi? How could you agree with me?

Mirza Ghulam Ahmad was not born of Mary of whom (Jesus) Yeshua was born. His father's name was Mirza Ghulam Murtaza and his mother's name was Charagh Bibi.
Mirza Ghulam Ahmad claimed to be the same (Jesus) Yeshua in spirit and character as prophesied by Yeshua and Muhammad. Right?
Yeshua had died a natural death, not on the Cross as do the Hellenist-Pauline-Christians believe, and those who die never return to this world again physically as per Quran and as also told by Yeshua- the Israelite Messiah, one may get informed, please. Right?

Regards

 

[Clara Tea]

For everyone who believes in the Bible, and also believes their group is the only "true" church, or only church with *real* authority, how do you explain away the scripture saying there are other sheep - telling everyone there are many different legit groups?

Legit? Who said that the other churches are legit?

Since there is no way of proving God or proving that the bible is true (especially with contradictions in it), there is no way to determine if any religion is legit.

I wouldn't call the followers sheep, because that implies that they follow, with herd mentality, some leader who isn't necessarily leading them to heaven.

In today's society, we see that a lot of followers are convinced by President W. Bush's claim that he is "fighting evil" or "fighting the Axis of Evil." This is exactly what Satan would say. Satan pretends to be on God's side, but really advocates wars and torture camps. Satan would convince followers to fight perpetual wars for peace. How can anyone fight perpetually for peace? That just doesn't make any sense.

While God said "thou shalt not kill." Why don't the followers notice that "fighing the Axis of Evil" involves killing? Why don't the followers catch on to the fact that President W. Bush bore false witness against his former allies in the Middle East and thereby started this war of killing and torture?

The quest for legitimacy allows Christianity (the religion of hate) to hate other denominations of the same Christian faith. For example, most Christians don't recognize that the Mormon religion is also Christian.

 

[InChrist]

To follow the guy who supposedly flooded the earth, sits back and watches kids get raped, who leaves people to starve, orchestrates wars?
.

God is not sitting back malevolently watching the evils you’ve listed. God is exercising patient restraint and judgement against those committing such wicked crimes against His creation. He is allowing people time to repent and change. The fact is that biblically God is holy and pure and if He were to judge and strike down every sinful person on the spot... we would all be dead now. Everyone falls short of God’s perfect standard. Everyone sins and commits crimes against others and God in one degree or another.

 

[Kenny]

What is "work of the Cross"?

It sounds like it appeals to Christians given the symbol of cross, so how will that unify non-Christians?

We are deviating from what the "another fold" means. Not trying to appeal to anyone.

but basically, according to my signature, John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

But, of course, man still has free will. Love isn't demanding.

 

[metis]

For everyone who believes in the Bible, and also believes their group is the only "true" church, or only church with *real* authority, how do you explain away the scripture saying there are other sheep - telling everyone there are many different legit groups?

I believe it refers to those who might not have yet converted to the Church but still were developing a faith in Jesus and his message, such as probably some of the "God Fearers".

 

[metis]

No matter - I'm a gyros fan anyway.

Oh ya!!!

 

[metis]

But I think I can understand your perspective and confusion because I was raised in the Catholic Church which claimed to be the “true church”.

I prefer to use the words "original Church", which it clearly is historically. "True" implies that all other denominations are false, which is not what the Church teaches and also that which I reject.

 

[Trailblazer]

United through everyone converting to your religion? Or are you planning on changing over to whichever group becomes most popular?

No, not uniting by everyone converting over to my religion.
No, I am not planning on changing over to whichever group becomes most popular.

I believe that in the future everyone will voluntarily choose to belong to one religion because that is what God has ordained. It will not necessarily be called the Baha'i Faith, it will be whatever religion is the latest religion that has been revealed by God through a Messenger.

My belief is based upon what Baha'u'llah wrote:

“That which the Lord hath ordained as the sovereign remedy and mightiest instrument for the healing of all the world is the union of all its peoples in one universal Cause, one common Faith. This can in no wise be achieved except through the power of a skilled, an all-powerful and inspired Physician. This, verily, is the truth, and all else naught but error.”
The Summons of the Lord of Hosts, p. 91

 

[PruePhillip]

For everyone who believes in the Bible, and also believes their group is the only "true" church, or only church with *real* authority, how do you explain away the scripture saying there are other sheep - telling everyone there are many different legit groups?

The sheep are those who love and obey Christ (not selectively, but prepared to consume the whole Exodus lamb)
The 'other sheep' are those who are yet to hear the call of the Gospel.

 

[paarsurrey]

paarsurrey said: ↑
" Those who have died never return. "
I agree with one here on what I have colored in magenta, please.

But Paarsurrey, was not Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, the returning Jesus, the Mahdi? How could you agree with me?

Paarsurrey wrote:

Mirza Ghulam Ahmad was not born of Mary of whom (Jesus) Yeshua was born. His father's name was Mirza Ghulam Murtaza and his mother's name was Charagh Bibi.
Mirza Ghulam Ahmad claimed to be the same (Jesus) Yeshua in spirit and character as prophesied by Yeshua and Muhammad. Right?
Yeshua had died a natural death, not on the Cross as do the Hellenist-Pauline-Christians believe, and those who die never return to this world again physically as per Quran and as also told by Yeshua- the Israelite Messiah, one may get informed, please. Right?

To add further:
The Messiah and the Mahdi
One and the Same Person

From the Traditions of the Holy Prophet it is evident that the Promised Messiah was to be a follower of the Holy Prophet. One Tradition tells us that:
'the Mahdi is no other than the Messiah' [Ibn-e-Maja]
Another Tradition says:
'How would it be with you when the son of Mary will descend among you and you will have a leader raised from among you?" [bukhari, kitabul-anbiya, chapter nuzul isa bin maryam]
https://www.alislam.org/library/mandm.html

Regards

 

[idea]

Do you then wish to eradicate religions, even hierarchies - also from time immemorial - and replace them with what?

In the eternal scheme of things, to imagine the best heaven, to me it would be equality. No heaven/hell, no God, no Savior - a state where all spirits are equally valued. With eternity to learn and grow -equal potential. I lean towards no beginning, no end, for all of us - that we are all the same age, all filled with the sane wisdom.

In the eternal scheme - infinite time to learn - do you see an eternal need for heirarchies? Why would one group be better than another after eternal time to learn and grow?

Legit? Who said that the other churches are legit?
.

Just curious how many religious folks viewed other groups in equally favorable light as themselves. Like, everyone has their family - but hopefully doesn't think the way their family works is "true" or 'right' compared to others. You might happen to be in one religious group - just friends and family in it - but despite what preachers might say, you see other religious groups as equally valid places to find community and toss spiritual ideas around - other sheep. How many believers here do not think the afterlife - or this life - really changes much based on what group you ended up in?

God is not sitting back malevolently watching the evils you’ve listed. God is exercising patient restraint and judgement against those committing such wicked crimes against His creation. He is allowing people time to repent and change. The fact is that biblically God is holy and pure and if He were to judge and strike down every sinful person on the spot... we would all be dead now. Everyone falls short of God’s perfect standard. Everyone sins and commits crimes against others and God in one degree or another.

That is another thread. It is a choice to protect the agency of the innocent or the agency of the evil. To give free will to one, is to take free will from another. Reality is, there is no loving god. Best to face that, then tell abused kids to pray, or that god loves them. consider the lilies ...Behold the birds of the heaven, that they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; and your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are not ye of much more value than they? ...

Well, I guess all the kids who starve to death were of less value.

I prefer to use the words "original Church", which it clearly is historically. "True" implies that all other denominations are false, which is not what the Church teaches and also that which I reject.

Original. Is older better?
New editions of textbooks seem to have better info than older. Seems like we should learn, progress, embrace added knowledge, not dig back to early superstitious reasoning?

Hindus have oldest text I think, does oldest = true?

 

[Qwin]

In the eternal scheme of things, to imagine the best heaven, to me it would be equality. No heaven/hell, no God, no Savior - a state where all spirits are equally valued. With eternity to learn and grow -equal potential. I lean towards no beginning, no end, for all of us - that we are all the same age, all filled with the sane wisdom.

In the eternal scheme - infinite time to learn - do you see an eternal need for heirarchies? Why would one group be better than another after eternal time to learn and grow?

Seems you didn't read my post, nvm then.

 

[idea]

Seems you didn't read my post, nvm then.

It seems your imagined heaven is eternal Master and slave, eternal divisions, eternal have's and have not's. Only one small flock of sheep. Different personalities I guess.

Imagined divisions after death seem to allow justification and acceptance of the real divisions in this life. Can I entice you with the thought - the kingdom belongs to children? Can you see children as having honesty, humility, as being equal to adults? Perhaps if you could consider learning from and respecting children, you could harbor the idea of learning and having love for all, seeing all as equal.

There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

No partiality.

Do nothing from rivalry or conceit, but in humility count others more significant than yourselves. Let each of you look not only to his own interests, but also to the interests of others.

You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.

Strive for peace with everyone

the last will be first, and the first last

But I say to you who hear, Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you

It is like a grain of mustard seed, which, when sown on the ground, is the smallest of all the seeds on earth, yet when it is sown it grows up and becomes larger than all the garden plants..

Hopefully all can imagine a reality where all are equal, no heirarchy, no divisions? The closer our thoughts are to this... aim for the stars, hit the moon. It is needful to remove ideas of just one flock, just one special chosen people, hell - these ideas need to die if we are to live in peace with each other in this life.

There are a few ideas in the Bible which are beautiful.

 

[metis]

Original. Is older better?

Not necessarily.

New editions of textbooks seem to have better info than older. Seems like we should learn, progress, embrace added knowledge, not dig back to early superstitious reasoning?

Just because one may have a general set of beliefs about God or Gods doesn't mean nor imply that they have to slip blindly into superstition. Most of us do not believe in biblical inerrancy.

Hindus have oldest text I think, does oldest = true?

Nope.

But the situation of "oldest" that I made was in reference to the fact that the Catholic Church was the original church Jesus and the Twelve created, but that certainly does not mean nor imply that it bats 1000 on its teachings. Is this important? Depends on who ya ask.


BTW, you might notice me being "ecumenical & naturalistic" stated at the top of my posts.

 

[Qwin]

It seems your imagined heaven is eternal Master and slave, eternal divisions, eternal have's and have not's. Only one small flock of sheep. Different personalities I guess.

Imagined divisions after death seem to allow justification and acceptance of the real divisions in this life. Can I entice you with the thought - the kingdom belongs to children? Can you see children as having honesty, humility, as being equal to adults? Perhaps if you could consider learning from and respecting children, you could harbor the idea of learning and having love for all, seeing all as equal.

There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

No partiality.

Do nothing from rivalry or conceit, but in humility count others more significant than yourselves. Let each of you look not only to his own interests, but also to the interests of others.

You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.

Strive for peace with everyone

the last will be first, and the first last

But I say to you who hear, Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you

It is like a grain of mustard seed, which, when sown on the ground, is the smallest of all the seeds on earth, yet when it is sown it grows up and becomes larger than all the garden plants..

Hopefully all can imagine a reality where all are equal, no heirarchy, no divisions? The closer our thoughts are to this... aim for the stars, hit the moon. It is needful to remove ideas of just one flock, just one special chosen people, hell - these ideas need to die if we are to live in peace with each other in this life.

There are a few ideas in the Bible which are beautiful.

Seems you glanced at my post, thx for that at least. However, the glance obviously overlooked the part about "be ye as a child or you can't enter heaven" (I quote roughly). You say that I do not respect children, vis: "Perhaps if you could consider respecting children" You are therefore saying that I should consider respecting children - which follows that I don't respect children. You do not know me, so that you are being flagrantly impertinent towards me. For example: it would be like me telling you stop beating your dog. You have insulted me.

And another rude presumption of yours, is your statement: "It seems your imagined heaven is eternal Master and slave, eternal divisions, eternal have's and have not's" I stated no such thing. Then you continue, and pontificate at me with some kind of obscure sermon...

Then you state: "Hopefully all can imagine a reality where all are equal, no heirarchy, no divisions? The closer our thoughts are to this... aim for the stars, hit the moon. It is needful to remove ideas of just one flock, just one special chosen people, hell - these ideas need to die if we are to live in peace with each other in this life."

If you want to preach at me with your unusual ideas, then say so - which I guess you did, indirectly. Otherwise I reiterate: 'you only glanced at my post.' But then I wonder if I'm not dealing with some kind of thing that has a few components missing. In which case, thx for your deeply thought-out 'spiritual' advice. Have a nice day!

 

[cataway]

there are people in our time that keep sheep . there will/can be some sheep that are registered and likely many more that will not registered . its easy enough to keep these sheep separated

For everyone who believes in the Bible, and also believes their group is the only "true" church, or only church with *real* authority, how do you explain away the scripture saying there are other sheep - telling everyone there are many different legit groups?

when you don't know what the bible says there should be confusion

 

[idea]

The Bible has quite a few mentions of few "sheep to the slaughter." It has: be ye as child to enter heaven (or something like that). There are interpretations of the meanings by religious officialdom, and 'officialdom' and associate hierarchies, even "racism" you mention, seem to be your complaint.

Yet, your complaint about religions has a point. Religions are like walled cities. Unless you agree with their words, more or less, and probably fashions, you don't get accepted into the city. Indeed, because they claim to be gate-keepers of a faith - whatever faith that may be. It could be said then, that you're a Protestant of today. Since time-immemorial there has always been protestants, and so, you're another.

Do you then wish to eradicate religions, even hierarchies - also from time immemorial - and replace them with what? Love and fun? You don't think that hasn't also been tried, hippies being the latest. Notably Libertines before them, and there were others. That's what history's all about. Do you like icecream? What's your favourite flavour - your favourites will roughly stack up hierarchically. How about friends, who's your favourite, 2nd, 3rd... Your ultimate dream life - the structure of your favourite to less favourite will be hierarchical. Perhaps wolves and the rest of nature have it all wrong, since they're mainly structured hierarchically, just as your likes and dislikes. This means that although you may not believe in hierarchies, you use them daily, hourly, often minute to minute. You're judging me now which is comparing me with others, using the process you would use to judge racists; good to bad. I'm guessing that you're not one of those racists whom you mention. Would racists then be evil? From that can I assume that you're good - oh, perhaps not super, super good, but gooder than evil racists?

And I wonder what you would do with racists? Perhaps something they wouldn't like done to them, I suspect. Would you: leave them to starve? Orchestrate a war against them? Drown them? Or instead, be tolerant of them? Give them flowers maybe?

Alas, the history of mankind, a never ending story.

Qwin, I did read and agree with the first half. I would argue that personal preference isn't the same as a heirarchy - I might like a different flavor of ice cream, but do not view another as lesser for having a different preference.

The eternal perspective is quite different from temporary fluctuations. In another thread I posted how I envision heaven - a drop returning to the ocean, all energy/matter/conscience mixed together as one - united, equal, connected.

Just the laws of thermodynamics - conservation principles - conservation of mass, energy, everything - nothing created, nothing destroyed, is that a strange belief? To think we all came from the same universal mixture and will return to it? All made from the same energy, atoms, conscience?

 

[idea]

there are people in our time that keep sheep . there will/can be some sheep that are registered and likely many more that will not registered . its easy enough to keep these sheep separated

when you don't know what the bible says there should be confusion

I've read many different translations of the Bible.

Not registered? With who? With your religion?

 

[idea]

Not necessarily.

Just because one may have a general set of beliefs about God or Gods doesn't mean nor imply that they have to slip blindly into superstition. Most of us do not believe in biblical inerrancy.

Nope.

But the situation of "oldest" that I made was in reference to the fact that the Catholic Church was the original church Jesus and the Twelve created, but that certainly does not mean nor imply that it bats 1000 on its teachings. Is this important? Depends on who ya ask.


BTW, you might notice me being "ecumenical & naturalistic" stated at the top of my posts.

Naturalistic is a beautiful add-on .
The Catholics I know seem to be better than other groups - the pope would like everyone to think they are infallible, but every Catholic I know think for themselves and do not feel the need to follow the pope as some groups follow their leaders. Some call Catholics the "great and abominable " church, child molesters, great-and-spacious buildings... but there are homeless shelters, and hospitals too - like every group, every family, good and bad mixed together, none perfect, none oldest (we all trace ourselves and come from eternal beginnings), none with "authority", just different groups.

 

[stvdv]

That is the goal of my religion, that humanity will eventually be united.

#MineToo