Outlawing Homosexuality Farcical

[Sand Dancer]

How “gay” can have children? The old-fashioned way needs woman and man. Man, and man can’t have children in old fashioned way. Are you suggesting that “gay” people have sex with opposite gender?

They do, it's just not their primary preference.

 

[loverofhumanity]

2 things there:

1) They're God's words - in your opinion. I don't agree with you. I think you have no way to demonstrate that. What we know for a fact is that they were words written by humans. And humans are wrong - a lot. Including humans who claim they speak for God. Whether that human had God whispering in his ear or not is up for debate.

2) Whether they're God's words or not doesn't actually explain why they're moral. Why does God have the view that two people of the same sex having sex is morally worse than say, genocide? Explain the moral reasoning there. If you don't have a good answer for that, then appealing to "they're God's words" is really just a cop out to shut down disagreement.

ETA: Posted this before I realized that @ADigitalArtist made much the same set of points more succinctly.

Bahá'í teachings on sexual morality centre on marriage and the family as the bedrock of the whole structure of human society and are designed to protect and strengthen that divine institution. This Bahá'í Law restricts permissible sexual intercourse to that between a man and the woman to whom he is married. (House of Justice)

 

[Left Coast]

Bahá'í teachings on sexual morality centre on marriage and the family as the bedrock of the whole structure of human society and are designed to protect and strengthen that divine institution. This Bahá'í Law restricts permissible sexual intercourse to that between a man and the woman to whom he is married. (House of Justice)

Yes, I know that's what they teach. And if Baha'is want to marry people of the opposite sex and have sex only with them, that's your prerogative. Gay people having sex doesn't stop you from doing that one bit. So there's no threat to any societal institution there.

Moreover, the question is why is it morally worse for me to have consensual sex with another man than to, say, murder him? Surely murder is a greater threat to the structure of society than two men or two women having sex?

 

[loverofhumanity]

Yes, I know that's what they teach. And if Baha'is want to marry people of the opposite sex and have sex only with them, that's your prerogative. Gay people having sex doesn't stop you from doing that one bit. So there's no threat to any societal institution there.

Moreover, the question is why is it morally worse for me to have consensual sex with another man than to, say, murder him? Surely murder is a greater threat to the structure of society than two men or two women having sex?

For you or someone else you might feel it’s morally fine. Why? I don’t know. You would have your reasons. Maybe it feels natural or right or good. Or because society accepts it you too agree, I don’t know. You have perhaps many reasons as I would that you believe are valid.

My reasons. From a child I’ve always been naturally attracted to the opposite sex. So it’s just part of me. When I joined the Baha’is I liked their views on marriage because I felt the same. So when I came across what Baha’u’llah and other religions I felt good about it because nature chose a man and a woman for procreation and now the Prophets are also supporting that.

If one is agnostic naturally one will say ‘they are just men’ (the Prophets), but from my side of the fence the Prophets of God ARE the Moral Benchmarks or Compasses, so if They say that something is immoral I won’t dispute it because, like a good doctor, they know what harms and benefits us.

Why? Apart from what Baha’u’llah says, the human body is normally born male or female. So if the persons gender is not functioning properl6 as given by nature then maybe hormonal balance etc needs to be addressed because normally a man is born a man to share himself with the opposite sex and same with women. If an aberration has occurred and it can be corrected then fine, if not the person will just need to learn to live with it and those around need to be kind.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

For you or someone else you might feel it’s morally fine. Why? I don’t know. You would have your reasons. Maybe it feels natural or right or good. Or because society accepts it you too agree, I don’t know. You have perhaps many reasons as I would that you believe are valid.

My reasons. From a child I’ve always been naturally attracted to the opposite sex. So it’s just part of me. When I joined the Baha’is I liked their views on marriage because I felt the same. So when I came across what Baha’u’llah and other religions I felt good about it because nature chose a man and a woman for procreation and now the Prophets are also supporting that.

If one is agnostic naturally one will say ‘they are just men’ (the Prophets), but from my side of the fence the Prophets of God ARE the Moral Benchmarks or Compasses, so if They say that something is immoral I won’t dispute it because, like a good doctor, they know what harms and benefits us.

Why? Apart from what Baha’u’llah says, the human body is normally born male or female. So if the persons gender is not functioning properl6 as given by nature then maybe hormonal balance etc needs to be addressed because normally a man is born a man to share himself with the opposite sex and same with women. If an aberration has occurred and it can be corrected then fine, if not the person will just need to learn to live with it and those around need to be kind.

Not sure I could live comfortably so far into the past as yourself.
The concept of a simple binary sexuality is so far in the past as to be laughable.
I am sure your prophets did the best they could with the level of understanding that they had. But times have moved on and the knowledge we have now about the nature of sexuality has moved on with it.

change is inevitable, religions and attitudes that do not change inevitably fade into the depths of time.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Not sure I could live comfortably so far into the past as yourself.
The concept of a simple binary sexuality is so far in the past as to be laughable.
I am sure your prophets did the best they could with the level of understanding that they had. But times have moved on and the knowledge we have now about the nature of sexuality has moved on with it.

change is inevitable, religions and attitudes that do not change inevitably fade into the depths of time.

I don’t know if nature has moved on. Nature still produces opposites for procreation.
But I respect that others have different views.

 

[night912]

For you or someone else you might feel it’s morally fine. Why? I don’t know. You would have your reasons. Maybe it feels natural or right or good. Or because society accepts it you too agree, I don’t know. You have perhaps many reasons as I would that you believe are valid.

My reasons. From a child I’ve always been naturally attracted to the opposite sex. So it’s just part of me. When I joined the Baha’is I liked their views on marriage because I felt the same. So when I came across what Baha’u’llah and other religions I felt good about it because nature chose a man and a woman for procreation and now the Prophets are also supporting that.

If one is agnostic naturally one will say ‘they are just men’ (the Prophets), but from my side of the fence the Prophets of God ARE the Moral Benchmarks or Compasses, so if They say that something is immoral I won’t dispute it because, like a good doctor, they know what harms and benefits us.

Why? Apart from what Baha’u’llah says, the human body is normally born male or female. So if the persons gender is not functioning properl6 as given by nature then maybe hormonal balance etc needs to be addressed because normally a man is born a man to share himself with the opposite sex and same with women. If an aberration has occurred and it can be corrected then fine, if not the person will just need to learn to live with it and those around need to be kind.

So basically what you're saying is that you believe that it's morally right for gays and adolescents to be punished via the death penalty?

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I think it is interesting why the subject is nowadays so big. I can understand why modern governments want to support it in every way. World is led by people who want to decrease the number of people. For that is useful to promote homosexual life style, because then people will get less children and are also more suggestible for governments ruling. It seems homosexual people support more tyranny and fascism, maybe because for them government is like dad. They don’t have the same family unit as heterosexual people and government seems to be substitute to it for them.

I don't even know how to respond to this type of ignorant stupidity tbh...........................

But, my answer to the question to: Why would you even spare a thought for outlawing homosexuality? I thought it, because you asked it. I don’t think it is necessary to outlaw it (the homosexual act). I think it would be good, if people would just understand why it is detestible (disgusting):

You shall not lie with a man, as with a woman. That is detestible.
Lev. 18:22

So it is disgusting because your book of ancient superstitions says so?

ps: "disgusting" = subjective.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Do you know more than God?

I certainly know more then superstitious goat herders from the bronze age who pretended to speak for God.
So do you.

 

[Brickjectivity]

They do, it's just not their primary preference.

It is likely common for gay men to get married and have children. Sometimes its not so obvious who is or isn't gay, but people shouldn't be surprised if there are a lot. We usually only hear about times when a married man leaves for a gay lover; however that is likely just a percentage of the number of gay men married to women.

 

[Brickjectivity]

I certainly know more then superstitious goat herders from the bronze age who pretended to speak for God.
So do you.

That is a very derogatory and inaccurate thing to say. Kind of mean and unproductive in my opinion. If you want to say that they weren't all that knowledgeable then say so, but don't talk down to herdsmen. They are decent folks, often quite intelligent and many are probably gaining access to the internet; and wouldn't it be cool if they came to RF to visit us?

By the way goat butter is fantastic.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

I don’t know if nature has moved on. Nature still produces opposites for procreation.
But I respect that others have different views.

I never suggested that nature has moved on. Though no doubt the normal evolutionary processes have continued, as they always do.

It was people's concepts and understandings that have most certainly changed regarding sexuality.

There is no evidence that there are any more homosexual people to day than there were in the past. It is their level of acceptance by society that has changed and is still changing.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

It is likely common for gay men to get married and have children. Sometimes its not so obvious who is or isn't gay, but people shouldn't be surprised if there are a lot. We usually only hear about times when a married man leaves for a gay lover; however that is likely just a percentage of the number of gay men married to women.

If memory serves me right, homosexuality occurs with about an 11% frequency.
Not sure if that also includes bisexuals.

But in general: thus on average about 1 in 10 men.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

That is a very derogatory and inaccurate thing to say.

I disagree.

Kind of mean and unproductive in my opinion. If you want to say that they weren't all that knowledgeable then say so, but don't talk down to herdsmen.

I wasn't talking down.
Sure, it's perhaps somewhat provocative, but that is just so to drive the point home.
Your average high-school educated adolescent factually knows more about the nature of the world then the superstitious ancients who came up with all these religions.

They are decent folks, often quite intelligent and many are probably gaining access to the internet; and wouldn't it be cool if they came to RF to visit us?

We're talking about the bronze age.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I never suggested that nature has moved on. Though no doubt the normal evolutionary processes have continued, as they always do.

It was people's concepts and understandings that have most certainly changed regarding sexuality.

There is no evidence that there are any more homosexual people to day than there were in the past. It is their level of acceptance by society that has changed and is still changing.

Exactly. There are proportionally just as many gay people in Iran as there are in western secular democracies also.
The thing is that in Iran, they don't tend to make it public because ...well... you know. It tends to be harmful to your health to embrace your alternative sexual orientation in such places.

 

[Left Coast]

My reasons. From a child I’ve always been naturally attracted to the opposite sex. So it’s just part of me.

And from a child I've always been naturally attracted to the same sex. So it's just part of me.

When I joined the Baha’is I liked their views on marriage because I felt the same. So when I came across what Baha’u’llah and other religions I felt good about it because nature chose a man and a woman for procreation and now the Prophets are also supporting that.

Sex is not merely about procreation, though. The planet has more humans on it than ever before in history. We've done plenty of procreating, lol.

Are Bahais required to procreate? How often?

If one is agnostic naturally one will say ‘they are just men’ (the Prophets), but from my side of the fence the Prophets of God ARE the Moral Benchmarks or Compasses, so if They say that something is immoral I won’t dispute it because, like a good doctor, they know what harms and benefits us.

Why? Apart from what Baha’u’llah says, the human body is normally born male or female. So if the persons gender is not functioning properl6 as given by nature then maybe hormonal balance etc needs to be addressed because normally a man is born a man to share himself with the opposite sex and same with women. If an aberration has occurred and it can be corrected then fine, if not the person will just need to learn to live with it and those around need to be kind.

You're not actually answering my question. That's okay, I suspect there is no answer beyond "The Prophets said so."

 

[loverofhumanity]

So basically what you're saying is that you believe that it's morally right for gays and adolescents to be punished via the death penalty?

The Baha’i Faith has no such law.

 

[loverofhumanity]

I certainly know more then superstitious goat herders from the bronze age who pretended to speak for God.
So do you.

Its irrelevant to you I suppose as you don’t believe in God.

 

[loverofhumanity]

I never suggested that nature has moved on. Though no doubt the normal evolutionary processes have continued, as they always do.

It was people's concepts and understandings that have most certainly changed regarding sexuality.

There is no evidence that there are any more homosexual people to day than there were in the past. It is their level of acceptance by society that has changed and is still changing.

Theres no issue for me because as far as I’m concerned gays are equal human beings and should be treated with respect and dignity.

 

[loverofhumanity]

And from a child I've always been naturally attracted to the same sex. So it's just part of me.



Sex is not merely about procreation, though. The planet has more humans on it than ever before in history. We've done plenty of procreating, lol.

Are Bahais required to procreate? How often?



You're not actually answering my question. That's okay, I suspect there is no answer beyond "The Prophets said so."

This might explain a bit more.

The Baha’i Teachings and Homosexuality - Baha'is of the United States