Overcoming Sexual Indoctrination

[Debater Slayer]

After considering how personal the OP of this thread is, I decided to put the thread in Member Announcements instead of the Sexuality forum.

Lately, I have been thinking about an issue related to attraction to trans women. That started even before a recent discussion on this forum about dating trans women who had a penis, which made me think about this issue even more.

While I maintain that I and others have the right not to date people whose bodies we are not attracted to for any reason, including for having the same genitals as ours, the main issue that is bothering me is that knowing that a woman is transgendered in and of itself kills off any attraction for me. For instance, I watch competitive "eSports," and one of the players I have seen is a girl. I found her attractive both in terms of her looks and personality, being that she is a gamer. I later found out that she is a trans woman, so my attraction faded away for absolutely no reason other than the fact that she is a trans woman.

And then there is the issue of sometimes having difficulty thinking of transgendered people as members of the gender they identify with. I know that gender dysphoria exists and also know that gender and physical sex are different things, yet sometimes when I know that someone is a trans woman or a trans man, I have difficulty thinking of them as belonging to the gender they identify with.

I don't know if this is a remnant of the extremely rigid and black-and-white Islamic beliefs I was taught from childhood, but it makes me extremely uncomfortable and bothers me a lot because I know it is irrational and prejudiced. It confuses me that I know about gender dysphoria and accept that gender and physical sex are not synonymous and yet have this problem of sometimes failing to accept people as members of the gender they identify with.

I'm mainly looking for opinions and advice concerning this, since I'm trying to change in this area and hope to be able to overcome this problem. It makes me feel like a bigot, and I dislike that.

By the way, in case anyone (I don't have any specific person in mind, for clarification) uses this thread as a trump card against me and/or calls me a bigot, transphobe, or whatever because of it, I know that the problem exists and am trying to overcome it. If you are going to use this as an opportunity to feel superior to me, be my guest, but just please don't do it here where I'm asking for advice. It's not like I'm posting this and saying how beautiful my problem is or that I'm proud of it. I know it's horrible, prejudiced, and irrational, but I honestly haven't been able to overcome it for some reason that I haven't been able to pin down yet. I'm hoping to change.

Thank you for reading. Your advice and/or opinion is appreciated.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Hey, it takes a lot of courage to admit these things and question ourselves. Kudos to you. You can certainly talk to me about it. I'm sorry for lashing out at you before. I'm going through a lot of stuff right now and I was pretty on edge the other night. Plus, I have a short temper. :/

 

[Unveiled Artist]

After considering how personal the OP of this thread is, I decided to put the thread in Member Announcements instead of the Sexuality forum.

Lately, I have been thinking about an issue related to attraction to trans women. That started even before a recent discussion on this forum about dating trans women who had a penis, which made me think about this issue even more.

While I maintain that I and others have the right not to date people whose bodies we are not attracted to for any reason, including for having the same genitals as ours, the main issue that is bothering me is that knowing that a woman is transgendered in and of itself kills off any attraction for me. For instance, I watch competitive "eSports," and one of the players I have seen is a girl. I found her attractive both in terms of her looks and personality, being that she is a gamer. I later found out that she is a trans woman, so my attraction faded away for absolutely no reason other than the fact that she is a trans woman.

And then there is the issue of sometimes having difficulty thinking of transgendered people as members of the gender they identify with. I know that gender dysphoria exists and also know that gender and physical sex are different things, yet sometimes when I know that someone is a trans woman or a trans man, I have difficulty thinking of them as belonging to the gender they identify with.

I don't know if this is a remnant of the extremely rigid and black-and-white Islamic beliefs I was taught from childhood, but it makes me extremely uncomfortable and bothers me a lot because I know it is irrational and prejudiced. It confuses me that I know about gender dysphoria and accept that gender and physical sex are not synonymous and yet have this problem of sometimes failing to accept people as members of the gender they identify with.

I'm mainly looking for opinions and advice concerning this, since I'm trying to change in this area and hope to be able to overcome this problem. It makes me feel like a bigot, and I dislike that.

By the way, in case anyone (I don't have any specific person in mind, for clarification) uses this thread as a trump card against me and/or calls me a bigot, transphobe, or whatever because of it, I know that the problem exists and am trying to overcome it. If you are going to use this as an opportunity to feel superior to me, be my guest, but just please don't do it here where I'm asking for advice. It's not like I'm posting this and saying how beautiful my problem is or that I'm proud of it. I know it's horrible, prejudiced, and irrational, but I honestly haven't been able to overcome it for some reason that I haven't been able to pin down yet. I'm hoping to change.

Thank you for reading. Your advice and/or opinion is appreciated.

I know this sounds like a cliche but dont beat yourself over it and its completely natual. For example, I am lesbian but I have an issue of seeing a man dressed as a woman (trans or personality lbt) and Im attracted to this woman, Id feek betrayed physically and mentally when I find that she is biologically a male.

Its not sexuality bias or anything. Its how our body and mind connect to those we are attracted to. Like anything else, when the "sheet falls down" of course there will be upsetting feelings.

What I usually do, knowing that many lesbian women fit he stereotype man-look people place on them, I remind myself that this is a person with her or his own identity. I cant control how my body reacts to what it thinks is a female "and" I can control how I respond.

Give yourself pep-talks.

Anyway, its natual. Its your bodies way of saying "I know you say you are female but my mind and body screams male". Cant change the fe/male organs so its not something that can be changed in that sense.

Its more becoming knowledgable in how trans define themselves while knowing how you define your attractions as well.

Get to know yourself.

 

[Thana]

After considering how personal the OP of this thread is, I decided to put the thread in Member Announcements instead of the Sexuality forum.

Lately, I have been thinking about an issue related to attraction to trans women. That started even before a recent discussion on this forum about dating trans women who had a penis, which made me think about this issue even more.

While I maintain that I and others have the right not to date people whose bodies we are not attracted to for any reason, including for having the same genitals as ours, the main issue that is bothering me is that knowing that a woman is transgendered in and of itself kills off any attraction for me. For instance, I watch competitive "eSports," and one of the players I have seen is a girl. I found her attractive both in terms of her looks and personality, being that she is a gamer. I later found out that she is a trans woman, so my attraction faded away for absolutely no reason other than the fact that she is a trans woman.

And then there is the issue of sometimes having difficulty thinking of transgendered people as members of the gender they identify with. I know that gender dysphoria exists and also know that gender and physical sex are different things, yet sometimes when I know that someone is a trans woman or a trans man, I have difficulty thinking of them as belonging to the gender they identify with.

I don't know if this is a remnant of the extremely rigid and black-and-white Islamic beliefs I was taught from childhood, but it makes me extremely uncomfortable and bothers me a lot because I know it is irrational and prejudiced. It confuses me that I know about gender dysphoria and accept that gender and physical sex are not synonymous and yet have this problem of sometimes failing to accept people as members of the gender they identify with.

I'm mainly looking for opinions and advice concerning this, since I'm trying to change in this area and hope to be able to overcome this problem. It makes me feel like a bigot, and I dislike that.

By the way, in case anyone (I don't have any specific person in mind, for clarification) uses this thread as a trump card against me and/or calls me a bigot, transphobe, or whatever because of it, I know that the problem exists and am trying to overcome it. If you are going to use this as an opportunity to feel superior to me, be my guest, but just please don't do it here where I'm asking for advice. It's not like I'm posting this and saying how beautiful my problem is or that I'm proud of it. I know it's horrible, prejudiced, and irrational, but I honestly haven't been able to overcome it for some reason that I haven't been able to pin down yet. I'm hoping to change.

Thank you for reading. Your advice and/or opinion is appreciated.

It's cool, it turns me off too. Actually it goes a little further than that, it kind of makes me mad. Which is strange, because not much bothers me. And I don't understand why either. The sad thing about prejudice is that even when you realize you are prejudiced it doesn't really change anything.

But I keep my mouth closed, because I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings. And there really is no need for me to express my opinion, because despite my dislike of transexuality, I still want them to be happy and feel good about themselves. So I just don't say anything, I accept it and just let it go. I can't really change my feelings about it, so instead of thinking of them as 'transgender' or 'transexual' I just think of them as people. That helps.

Honestly, I wouldn't worry about it. It will either work itself out or it won't, but as long as you treat them like human beings with rights and feelings then all's well, I reckon.

 

[Kori]

The greatest weapon humans have against Indoctrination of ANY type is curiosity. Granted some people's curiosity is stronger than others but we all have it.

 

[Laika]

After considering how personal the OP of this thread is, I decided to put the thread in Member Announcements instead of the Sexuality forum.

Lately, I have been thinking about an issue related to attraction to trans women. That started even before a recent discussion on this forum about dating trans women who had a penis, which made me think about this issue even more.

While I maintain that I and others have the right not to date people whose bodies we are not attracted to for any reason, including for having the same genitals as ours, the main issue that is bothering me is that knowing that a woman is transgendered in and of itself kills off any attraction for me. For instance, I watch competitive "eSports," and one of the players I have seen is a girl. I found her attractive both in terms of her looks and personality, being that she is a gamer. I later found out that she is a trans woman, so my attraction faded away for absolutely no reason other than the fact that she is a trans woman.

And then there is the issue of sometimes having difficulty thinking of transgendered people as members of the gender they identify with. I know that gender dysphoria exists and also know that gender and physical sex are different things, yet sometimes when I know that someone is a trans woman or a trans man, I have difficulty thinking of them as belonging to the gender they identify with.

I don't know if this is a remnant of the extremely rigid and black-and-white Islamic beliefs I was taught from childhood, but it makes me extremely uncomfortable and bothers me a lot because I know it is irrational and prejudiced. It confuses me that I know about gender dysphoria and accept that gender and physical sex are not synonymous and yet have this problem of sometimes failing to accept people as members of the gender they identify with.

I'm mainly looking for opinions and advice concerning this, since I'm trying to change in this area and hope to be able to overcome this problem. It makes me feel like a bigot, and I dislike that.

By the way, in case anyone (I don't have any specific person in mind, for clarification) uses this thread as a trump card against me and/or calls me a bigot, transphobe, or whatever because of it, I know that the problem exists and am trying to overcome it. If you are going to use this as an opportunity to feel superior to me, be my guest, but just please don't do it here where I'm asking for advice. It's not like I'm posting this and saying how beautiful my problem is or that I'm proud of it. I know it's horrible, prejudiced, and irrational, but I honestly haven't been able to overcome it for some reason that I haven't been able to pin down yet. I'm hoping to change.

Thank you for reading. Your advice and/or opinion is appreciated.

DS, it isn't your fault if you feel that way. You are a product of your society and your experiences. we all are and we can't escape that even if we can change it incrementally. the fact you recognise it is more than most people will ever do. If you accept and forgive yourself for recognising that you feel that way, that ability to forgive will probably translate into becoming more opennes to transpeople or probably other groups. feeling that you want to change and being open about how you feel is the first step so you're doing pretty well. you've been conditioned to feel this way over the course of a life-time, so don't expect yourself to change overnight as that is really only a form of punishment and self-harm.

I have issues with "political correctness" for this reason because whilst I appreciate the intent, getting people to change isn't easy. rather than engage in repression or punishment, seek to be authentic and find out who you really are- warts and all. this isn't a wholly "rational" process because many of our prejudices are emotional particuarly when it comes to sex- so we have to unravel them with time and effort and really think about "why" we feel that way and how we were indoctorinated to be so. be kind to yourself, give yourself the private space to think about it, don't let people humilitate you for it (on RF or offline) and just take small steps to being the person you want to be. you have the courage to change- that's the best place to start.

*hug*

 

[Sunstone]

While I maintain that I and others have the right not to date people whose bodies we are not attracted to for any reason, including for having the same genitals as ours, the main issue that is bothering me is that knowing that a woman is transgendered in and of itself kills off any attraction for me. For instance, I watch competitive "eSports," and one of the players I have seen is a girl. I found her attractive both in terms of her looks and personality, being that she is a gamer. I later found out that she is a trans woman, so my attraction faded away for absolutely no reason other than the fact that she is a trans woman.

Your statement here seems ambiguous to me. Do you mean that your attraction to the woman faded away because she was a trans woman, or did it fade away because, upon learning she was a trans woman, you thought she might have a penis -- something that you're not attracted to? The former would seem to imply you have something against transgendered folks, the latter would seem only to imply you have a sexual preference for vaginas and/or an aversion to penises.

If you are going to use this as an opportunity to feel superior to me, be my guest...

Finally! I get to be superior to DS! I knew the day would come! I just knew it! *does insufferably happy superiority dance*

 

[Augustus]

the main issue that is bothering me is that knowing that a woman is transgendered in and of itself kills off any attraction for me. For instance, I watch competitive "eSports," and one of the players I have seen is a girl. I found her attractive both in terms of her looks and personality, being that she is a gamer. I later found out that she is a trans woman, so my attraction faded away for absolutely no reason other than the fact that she is a trans woman.

Attraction is a very personal thing and many parts of it are subconscious and not open to rational analysis.

I would also make a differentiation between 'attractive' and 'attracted to'. For example, I can understand why 'size 0' type supermodels are attractive, I just am not attracted to them. I can agree that many people who I'm not personally attracted to are attractive in general.

Attraction can also be 'killed' by many things. A physically attractive person with a dislikable character might kill your attraction. Sometimes something as silly and irrational as the fact that they remind you of someone you don't like can be enough.

While gender is something that is flexible, there are biological differences between the sexes, that you are aware of this could again be a factor in attraction. Even the idea that someone has undergone significant surgery could be a factor. Many things could be.

Attraction is what it is, you are or you aren't. No one should have to justify or explain it or feel like they need to change it.

. It confuses me that I know about gender dysphoria and accept that gender and physical sex are not synonymous and yet have this problem of sometimes failing to accept people as members of the gender they identify with.

I'm mainly looking for opinions and advice concerning this, since I'm trying to change in this area and hope to be able to overcome this problem. It makes me feel like a bigot, and I dislike that.

I think lots of people have the issue and it is based around the idea that there are fundamental differences between the sexes which are not totally eradicated by gender reassignment.

I wouldn't say it is 'bigoted' to have difficulty moving beyond this. Many things make us 'uncomfortable' based on stereotypes, expectations, socialisation etc just because thats the way the mind works.

There is an expectation of some people that we should be able to view everybody absolutely free of any existing racial, gender, sexual, or social paradigm, but this is simply not possible. It will always be there to some extent. We aren't purely rational on every conceivable issue and don't exist in a vacuum.

What differentiates you from a real bigot though, is that you see this as your problem, not their problem. The bigot blames the 'other' for their lack of acceptance and sees them as inferior. You accept equality, but just admit to having personal difficulties moving beyond the 'traditional' way of looking at these issues. This is not bigoted and is perfectly normal. You shouldn't feel 'bad' about it, even if it is something you would like to change.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

I'm not exactly the most PC person in the world, but I think you are overthinking it, mate.
Who or what you are attracted to doesn't strike me as a sign of bigotry, although I understand your point about it being 'only' due to someone being a trans woman. I have a weird thing where I don't find augmented breasts attractive. I can obviously be attracted to someone who's had a breast enlargement without even being aware of it, but if I am aware of it is does have some impact on the attraction I feel.

But ultimately whether someone is attracted to me or not isn't a sign of them being bigoted against me. There is no expectation on someone to BE attracted to me. There is an expectation for them to treat me fair and equitably.

 

[LuisDantas]

I'm not sure attraction is, can be or should be made rational, at least until actual knowledge of the person is attained.

The other thread convinced me that bigotry can exist regardless of the personal privilieges of attraction.

Still, bigotry IMO is something else besides a simple lack of interest and attraction.

It is a disinclination to extend certain groups the measure of respect and trust that everyone is entitled. A failure to fulfill a duty of respect and consideration. Not in the "live and let alone" sense, but as actual consideration. As being aware and having a measure of time to consider their existence.

It is a pet peeve of mine that far too many people decide that they are too good to mix or even acknowledge the existence of certain other people and yet feel at ease calling that a respectful attitude. It is not. This is a significant point to remember when one discusses certain forms of LGBTIQ-related bigotry, including bigotry towards trangendered people.

The way I see it, perceiving transgendered people as being of the gender they identify with is by definition not a given, even for themselves. I think it is healthier and more accurate to understand it as a liberating conquest as opposed to a duty that one can either fulfill or fail at.

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

Has it got anything to do with possibly being viewed as "gay?"
Even though you may be pro gay acceptance, you could be uncomfortable at the thought of being perceived as gay yourself?

 

[Mindmaster]

For me it is simple, I want real parts. I am completely not attracted to cosmetic alterations of any sort unless they are done to restore someone from an accident or birth defect, in which case I can grant reasonable exceptions. I also am not attracted to people dressing as the other sex at all in any fashion. There is nothing to think over. The leads the revolt.

It is not a defect of logic to recognize, or admit that someone is different that's why there is a trans category in the first place. And, to me I think that it is it's own middling sexual category despite the identity issues. A m-t-f who likes men is basically gay, but not gay like a gay man who wants men who live as men. That's generally not acceptable to gays as a viable relation because that isn't what they are attracted to physically. For bisexuals, it's just about a toss up but many are in my preference of original equipment -- if that isn't an issue maybe they appreciate the variety.

The whole world isn't persecuting you simply because of what is different it just isn't gonna fire them up and it's about being honest. I don't need to understand anything about what I am aroused but I don't stand around doubting my nature. I also don't think trans is identical to the normal gender role -- I think a great deal of men's and women's identity is not just about roles but about their bond with their physical nature. Trans people just cannot have this, and to lie about is just being dishonest, so saying a trans man is the same as a man is silly. They've never been kicked in the balls, had blue balls, or shared any of other the little details of that physical set of traits and these things do shape our view of ourselves. Women's lives are shaped by from everything about having boobs and the time of the month and all of the little dynamics that it throws into their lives. I just can't sit here and say that a trans is the same because it isn't.

In the end, I support someone to be a trans because we should always live the way it makes us the most happy to do. But, I acknowledge people who like traditional identity roles and love them that way as well. This is not a binary discussion, the balance should be promoted.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I'm mainly looking for opinions and advice concerning this, since I'm trying to change in this area and hope to be able to overcome this problem. It makes me feel like a bigot, and I dislike that.

I would say that it's not surprising that someone who is like yourself, who tries to build bridges, learn, understand, and accept people, would have such feelings. We are all products of our culture, and even I used to vehemently deny myself, and it took me down some paths and to some places that weren't good for me, and things that definitely are not me, and it only happened because I was trying to be who others thought I should be, rather than being myself. Even after I left Christianity it took me some time to even begin to accept homosexuals. And, really, it was exposure to them that lead to me eventually seeing them as a regular and normal part of the being human. And the negativity towards being trans lingered on even longer.
Call them growing pains, or cognitive dissonance, or whatever, but they are normal when you realize your views hurt others and repress them, especially when you are the type that doesn't mean to cause any harm to begin with. A part of growing up and maturing is making your own decisions and drawing your own conclusions, and it's normal for us to feel various degrees of discomfort over the idea of realizing that what we feel is nothing more than how we've been told to think, and something we've based our life on is wrong, and we are forced to realize and accept that.

 

[Father Heathen]

Don't feel shame about how you feel. Sometimes it can't be helped, and you don't have to justify the private recesses of your mind. What's important is what you think and do.

Also, what "eSport" are you into? My brother will be a VIP attendee at the upcoming MLG "Counter-Strike: Global Offensive" Major Championship in Columbus.

 

[Debater Slayer]

Hey, it takes a lot of courage to admit these things and question ourselves. Kudos to you. You can certainly talk to me about it. I'm sorry for lashing out at you before. I'm going through a lot of stuff right now and I was pretty on edge the other night. Plus, I have a short temper. :/

No problem. I hope life takes a turn for the better for you.

 

[Debater Slayer]

Your statement here seems ambiguous to me. Do you mean that your attraction to the woman faded away because she was a trans woman, or did it fade away because, upon learning she was a trans woman, you thought she might have a penis -- something that you're not attracted to? The former would seem to imply you have something against transgendered folks, the latter would seem only to imply you have a sexual preference for vaginas and/or an aversion to penises.

The former: it faded away just because she was a trans woman. Absolutely no other reason.

 

[Debater Slayer]

Has it got anything to do with possibly being viewed as "gay?"
Even though you may be pro gay acceptance, you could be uncomfortable at the thought of being perceived as gay yourself?

Not that, no. I don't think it would make me gay at all to be attracted to a trans woman; it's just that learning about her "original" physical sex turns me off for some reason.

 

[Debater Slayer]

Don't feel shame about how you feel. Sometimes it can't be helped, and you don't have to justify the private recesses of your mind. What's important is what you think and do.

Well, if I became attracted to a woman and then my attraction abruptly stopped just because I learned she was of a particular ethnicity, I think that would be racist, and I would feel bad about feeling that way. This is a similar issue.

Also, what "eSport" are you into? My brother will be a VIP attendee at the upcoming MLG "Counter-Strike: Global Offensive" Major Championship in Columbus.

League of Legends, mostly. I love the game, love watching it, and love reading forum posts about it.

 

[Parsimony]

Is this necessarily an issue of indoctrination alone? I could easily see instinct as playing a big role here too. If a heterosexual man finds the idea of having sex with a woman desirable and sex with another man repulsive due to his orientation, then wouldn't it be expected (at least from a psychological standpoint) that knowing that a particular woman used to be a man would create a sense of internal conflict? Similar things happen in other areas of life too. I recall watching a show where a sterilized cockroach was placed in a glass of water and a man was asked to drink from it. Although the cockroach carried no harmful pathogens, the instinct was still there to avoid it and the man couldn't bring himself to partake of it. That's not to say that indoctrination plays no role, but rather that it likely isn't the only factor.

 

[First Baseman]

Is this necessarily an issue of indoctrination alone? I could easily see instinct as playing a big role here too. If a heterosexual man finds the idea of having sex with a woman desirable and sex with another man repulsive due to his orientation, then wouldn't it be expected (at least from a psychological standpoint) that knowing that a particular woman used to be a man would create a sense of internal conflict? Similar things happen in other areas of life too. I recall watching a show where a sterilized cockroach was placed in a glass of water and a man was asked to drink from it. Although the cockroach carried no harmful pathogens, the instinct was still there to avoid it and the man couldn't bring himself to partake of it. That's not to say that indoctrination plays no role, but rather that it likely isn't the only factor.

Good post. I wouldn't have wanted to drink it, either.