Overlapping Deities, Medium Polytheism

[EyeofOdin]

Personally, I identify as a "medium" polytheist, meaning I'm not a "hard" polytheist, as all deities are distinct individuals, regardless of differing pantheons or names, but I'm not a "soft" polytheist, as in there is a central one or few deities and all other deities are aspects or archetypes of that entity. I'm a medium polytheist, meaning that I believe that there is a single pantheon of gods and goddesses with various abilities and forms, and they have interacted with the various cultures and religions around the world, and every culture used their language and their tribal culture to interpret that deity as best they could.

So when approaching the god Tyr, I feel in my gut that he is, at the very least, related to Zeus, Jupiter, Atum, Dyaus Pita and The Dagda, if not the same deity as them. The same I feel goes for Hel, Hekate and Kali and Thor, Indra, Vulcan and Horus.

I was wondering if there was anyone else who adheres to these ideas? Not necessarily believing in the specific deities I've put forth, as they're just examples, but more in the central idea that there is one pantheon of gods and goddesses interacting with all of the world's cultures and interpreted differently by their language and their culture.

 

[Poeticus]

Personally, I identify as a "medium" polytheist, meaning I'm not a "hard" polytheist, as all deities are distinct individuals, regardless of differing pantheons or names, but I'm not a "soft" polytheist, as in there is a central one or few deities and all other deities are aspects or archetypes of that entity. I'm a medium polytheist, meaning that I believe that there is a single pantheon of gods and goddesses with various abilities and forms, and they have interacted with the various cultures and religions around the world, and every culture used their language and their tribal culture to interpret that deity as best they could.

So when approaching the god Tyr, I feel in my gut that he is, at the very least, related to Zeus, Jupiter, Atum, Dyaus Pita and The Dagda, if not the same deity as them. The same I feel goes for Hel, Hekate and Kali and Thor, Indra, Vulcan and Horus.

I was wondering if there was anyone else who adheres to these ideas? Not necessarily believing in the specific deities I've put forth, as they're just examples, but more in the central idea that there is one pantheon of gods and goddesses interacting with all of the world's cultures and interpreted differently by their language and their culture.

It's very similar to the theology that I abide by: Kathenotheism. The only difference is: there is a one God at a time while there is also many Gods at a time, when it comes to Kathenotheism. For example, my Vedic shākhā (Vedic sect) will praise Agni, Indra, Varuna, Mitra individually in yagya-s. But, there will come a time when we recite hymns that address many at the same time (e.g., Vishve-Devah [the All-Gods], Mitra-Varuna, Indra-Agni, Indra-Vishnu, Indra-Varuna, etc.).

 

[Quintessence]

I think it is a good idea to keep in mind that our understanding of the gods is a map of the territory. Because of that, it is hypothetically possible that different cultures are encountering the same territory but mapping it (or understanding and naming it) differently. I would not, however, call this observation "medium" polytheism. I have not encountered someone talking about such a thing before, but my initial response to this new idea is to feel there is no such thing. With respect to the territory, things are either the same or they aren't. My mother is either the same as your mother or she isn't. There's no middle ground there. You could, however, happen to know my mother and call her some different name in your map of the territory.

When we're dealing with otherworldly gods that lack tangible form, there's no objective way to know whether or not the different cultural maps are experiences to the same territory. I feel it is better to default to treating aspects as distinct for this reason alone, but also because this is how sound scholarship on the subject is done. Comparative observations and speculations are fine, but unless we can substantiate claims that god X from culture Y is the same as god A in culture B, such claims should not be made matter-of-fact. If you want to blend things together in your personal religious path, that's fine, but I think we need to distinguish between what's evidenced in archeological study and what's grounded in subjective experience or personal gnosis.

Some Pagan gods specifically and directly reference tangible thisworldly things (arguably, nearly all of them do, but let's not go there for now). Cases like this are more cut and dry; a god attributed to a specific land feature is what it is. That naiad is either in that specific river or it isn't. And anybody who goes to that specific river - regardless of what they call that naiad or draw that map of the territory - is going to experience that common naiad (the territory). The various Pagan gods that represent more abstract things, though? Things like ideas, tradecrafts, or virtues? That gets complicated and very subjective.

 

[EyeofOdin]

Well of course we will never actually definitively say for a fact that one was is the "true" way. Whether the gods actually exist, exist as archetypes, as definitive individuals, or somewhere in between, ultimately we'll never truly know.

But when drawing maps, the different cultures of course didn't create the same features, as their perspectives are very different, but some are remarkably similar.

Take Zeus for example. Linguistically he is cognate to Tyr, Jupiter, Dagda and Dyaus Pita, all of these deities having affinities to the sky, having similar depictions and also having a role that speaks something to the effect of authority, wisdom, and justice, so one could speculate that these deities might be the same god, just interpreted by different languages and with slightly different lore.

There are also some deities that seam to not have been viewed by varying cultures and seem to be unique to that people. Laufey, a giantess, seems to have no immediate cognate with any other culture and also seems to be unique to the Germanic peoples.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

No, I'm a hard polytheist. I don't think Thor and Zeus are the same entities, for example.

 

[Jaskaran Singh]

Take Zeus for example. Linguistically he is cognate to Tyr, Jupiter, Dagda and Dyaus Pita, all of these deities having affinities to the sky, having similar depictions and also having a role that speaks something to the effect of authority, wisdom, and justice, so one could speculate that these deities might be the same god, just interpreted by different languages and with slightly different lore.

dyauSh is very rarely depicted in art as far as I can tell (unless you count parjanya as dyauSh), although bhIShma is said to be an "avatAra" of dyauSh acc. to the mahAbhAratam, as he is forced to take birth in the human world as a result of his actions (ayaM tuyatkR^ite yUyaM mayA shaptAH sa vatsyati dyaustadA mAnuShe loke dIrghakAlaM svakarmaNA - shloka 1.93.37).

 

[technomage]

I was wondering if there was anyone else who adheres to these ideas? Not necessarily believing in the specific deities I've put forth, as they're just examples, but more in the central idea that there is one pantheon of gods and goddesses interacting with all of the world's cultures and interpreted differently by their language and their culture.

While I am currently agnostic about the existence of the Gods, I can certainly see and appreciate the logic of any of the three varieties of polytheism (hard, medium, or soft). In all honesty, I just never felt very confident saying "I believe the Gods match my description of them." At best, my understanding would be an inaccurate map, and at worst, I was likely to just confuse everything.

But I did discover that I am _very_ good at being confused!

 

[Sees]

Even though a varied amount may be similar entity/being I would still treat them as separate and specific. I don't think they mind

Again the quote "Then said High One: "It would take a vast amount of knowledge to cover them all, but it is swiftest to say, that most of the names have been given (To him)because, the many different nations speaking different tongues in the world, all wanted to change his name into their own tongue in order to address and pray (to him) for themselves" shows some historical consideration.

The reason I would take them as separate and distinct regardless is to honor those other traditions and be able to fully appreciate that distinct concept of the God/dess they have developed and cherished. In the end even within a land where Odin is Odin or Kali is Kali the concepts and relationships would be extremely varied.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Even though a varied amount may be similar entity/being I would still treat them as separate and specific. I don't think they mind

Again the quote "Then said High One: "It would take a vast amount of knowledge to cover them all, but it is swiftest to say, that most of the names have been given (To him)because, the many different nations speaking different tongues in the world, all wanted to change his name into their own tongue in order to address and pray (to him) for themselves" shows some historical consideration.

The reason I would take them as separate and distinct regardless is to honor those other traditions and be able to fully appreciate that distinct concept of the God/dess they have developed and cherished. In the end even within a land where Odin is Odin or Kali is Kali the concepts and relationships would be extremely varied.

I agree with this. :yes:

Can't frubal you now, though. Lol.

 

[Jainarayan]

Even though a varied amount may be similar entity/being I would still treat them as separate and specific. I don't think they mind

Indeed, even though Zeus, Indra, Thor (Þórr vigi)*, Shakra, the Jade Emperor, have similar but not identical attributes, as do Surya and Helios, of the sky gods Thor (Þórr vigi)* speaks to me.

*my version of the muslim pbuh.

 

[EyeofOdin]

Indeed, even though Zeus, Indra, Thor (Þórr vigi)*, Shakra, the Jade Emperor, have similar but not identical attributes, as do Surya and Helios, of the sky gods Thor (Þórr vigi)* speaks to me.

*my version of the muslim pbuh.

I don't think that we'll ever fully know if Thor, Indra and Shango are the same entities, or if Zeus, Jupiter, Tyr, Dyaus Pitar or Dagda are all the same entities. We do know that most of them however are strongly linguistically and culturally connected to each other, so to say "Dionysos isn't an aspect of Thor and Aphrodite and Hermes aren't aspects of Freya and Odin" seems a little ignorant, because we know that all Proto-Indo-European pantheons stem from an original PIE religion, and it's possible that all pantheons stem from an ancient African pantheon.

 

[Jainarayan]

I don't think that we'll ever fully know if Thor, Indra and Shango are the same entities, or if Zeus, Jupiter, Tyr, Dyaus Pitar or Dagda are all the same entities. We do know that most of them however are strongly linguistically and culturally connected to each other, so to say "Dionysos isn't an aspect of Thor and Aphrodite and Hermes aren't aspects of Freya and Odin" seems a little ignorant, because we know that all Proto-Indo-European pantheons stem from an original PIE religion, and it's possible that all pantheons stem from an ancient African pantheon.

Exactly. :clap Unless someone invents that dad-gum time machine. Cultural and linguistic drift over the millennia, i.e. the equivalent of the kids' game "telephone", changes names, attributes, etc. Even east Asian deities' attributes may have been influenced by IE, or vice versa. For the most part I think humans see things pretty much the same way... e.g. a god of death, a god of thunder, a god(dess) of love, arts, etc. We tend to not give humans enough credit for being as chatty as they were over the great distances and time scales.

 

[Jaskaran Singh]

Indeed, even though Zeus, Indra, Thor (Þórr vigi)*, Shakra, the Jade Emperor, have similar but not identical attributes, as do Surya and Helios, of the sky gods Thor (Þórr vigi)* speaks to me.

*my version of the muslim pbuh.

Well, shakra is indra and indra is shakra, hence why the bauddha-s often call him "shakra devAnAm indra," meaning shakra, indra of the deva-s, and the veda-s also refer to indra as shakra, like in the phrase "átÍdu shakrá ohatendro víshvA áti dvíShaH...bhinát kanÍna odanám pacyámAnam parógirÁ" (Indra regards himself as greater [shakrá] than those who are extremely hostile [to him]; as a youth, he cleaved open [the mountain] to obtain the cooked porridge on the other side of the mountain).

 

[Jainarayan]

Well, shakra is indra and indra is shakra, hence why the bauddha-s often call him "shakra devAnAm indra," meaning shakra, indra of the deva-s, and the veda-s also refer to indra as shakra, like in the phrase "átÍdu shakrá ohatendro víshvA áti dvíShaH...bhinát kanÍna odanám pacyámAnam parógirÁ" (Indra regards himself as greater [shakrá] than those who are extremely hostile [to him]; as a youth, he cleaved open [the mountain] to obtain the cooked porridge on the other side of the mountain).

Have you seen this? http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/3692025-post15.html The link is Hindu Devas take a (silk) road trip to Japan! « Videshi Sutra I think it's quite interesting and enlightening.