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Overwhelming Historical Proof: Why do you doubt Jesus?

Satans_Serrated_Edge

Satans_Serrated_Edge

Deicidal
meghanwaterlillies said:
I'll just reply like below and yes Josephus may have only maintained it despite the fact they may have used it to also destroy evidence..
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Say what?

You got any direct quotes from verifiable sources or don't you?

I mean, Im fairly certain you do not, as none exist afaik, but here you have an opportunity to verify your as of yet specious claims. (Or take the intellectually honest route and renounce them, but im not holding my breath)
 
meghanwaterlillies

meghanwaterlillies

Well-Known Member
columbus said:
That is quite a lot of words. But not one addresses the question you quoted.
Tom
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Well getting to that....its like you wanted stuff of the historical even if you wont believe, you have others bible and not;okay fine.. So I'm not really sure what he's asking? he says eye witness account after (like you want me pull him out of my pocket and say now you can see jesus?) make him come in the clouds?:) Or send someone to you; you can call the messiah who is just an official general business or maybe a picture of the messiah in art work and Nero can stab himself again and say what an artist dies with me.....................ugh..........
 
C

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
meghanwaterlillies said:
Well getting to that....its like you wanted stuff of the historical even if you wont believe, you have others bible and not;okay fine.. So I'm not really sure what he's asking? he says eye witness account after (like you want me pull him out of my pocket and say now you can see jesus?) make him come in the clouds?:) Or send someone to you; you can call the messiah who is just an official general business or maybe a picture of the messiah in art work and Nero can stab himself again and say what an artist dies with me.....................ugh..........
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The question was "Do you know what an eye witness is?"
Tom
 
meghanwaterlillies

meghanwaterlillies

Well-Known Member
columbus said:
No.
It's more like a "yes or no" question. The answer doesn't seem to be yes.
The answers you give seem more like unsupported assertions that there are eye witnesses to the stories and legends about Jesus.
Tom
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Phillip and the disciples saw him, other took part in the crucifixion, and other people who wrote about him.. no matter what side they took... These are all at least claims that he existed and that people saw him. That's truth. Claims that it doesn't mean Jesus even existed is actually beyond me. But that's okay unsupported. Even if historically they even tried too suppress it or use it for a political apocalyptic advantage for their ends, for leadership or guilt. I could say this person never existed or that person never did, I hope thats not you, (I'm a little sarcastic) and but I could do this and never learn as much on the same note I could say he did exist and see what others say, and learn a thing or two about that (that's just extra) I like finding even small things.. I hate to say it its not as easy when you look for evidence outside of faith and then if shown, its up to them. Anyways if playing angels and demons was as easy as tom hanks just walking on the Great evidence it wouldn't be so hard. LOL .. And even then the theory as it wouldn't be enough may still arise, but I'm not worried about that, I'm glad to have something more than doubt even if facts are presented.
 
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meghanwaterlillies

meghanwaterlillies

Well-Known Member
meghanwaterlillies said:
Phillip and the disciples saw him, other took part in the crucifixion, and other people who wrote about him.. no matter what side they took... These are all at least claims that he existed and that people saw him. That's truth. Claims that it doesn't mean Jesus even existed is actually beyond me. But that's okay unsupported. Even if historically they even tried too suppress it or use it for a political apocalyptic advantage for their ends, for leadership or guilt. I could say this person never existed or that person never did, I hope thats not you, (I'm a little sarcastic) and but I could do this and never learn as much on the same note I could say he did exist and see what others say, and learn a thing or too about that (that's just extra) I like finding even small things.. I hate say it its not as easy when you look for evidence outside of faith but I believe its there too and then if shown its not enough or its not really. Anyways if playing angels and demons was as easy as tom hanks just walking on the Great evidence it wouldn't be so hard. LOL .. And even then the theory as it wouldn't be enough may still arise.
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You know the most amazing things like looking for artifacts have happened. I didn't really need that to believe; so maybe one day I'll easily come upon "evidence"... :)
 
roger1440

roger1440

I do stuff
meghanwaterlillies said:
Iudaeos impulsore Chresto assidue tumultuantis Roma expulit
The Roman historian and senator Tacitus referred to Christ, his execution by Pontius Pilate
Flavius Josephus, jewish historian.. I got to find some of things but like usual when you research lets just say Jesus, Jordan river, you get only part of the actual references like a concordance. For example I research a word and I get everything from people person experiences some hints to actual leads, to I have my own physical concordance theres a dozen more references to that word and yet online concordance only tells theres 4? People make websites and knowledge is limited.
And please, and give me a second while get past the herodian gemetria christos boy murder cult/kaba, they get alittle sunk holding that stone (don't like it) and find some of the research that I did find before including pillar with a warning to nero that didn't win the remifications after to gaius Claudius and so on..
Is There Any Evidence that Jesus Existed?
Skeptics like Ellen Johnson [former President of American Atheists] cite the “lack of secular history” for Jesus as evidence that he didn’t exist.

Yet there is very little documentation for any person from the time of Christ. Most ancient historical documents have been destroyed through the centuries, by wars, fires, and pillaging, or simply through weathering and deterioration.

According to E. M. Blaiklock, who has catalogued most of the non-Christian writings of the Roman Empire, “practically nothing exists from the time of Christ”, even for great secular leaders such as Julius Caesar.¹ Yet no historian questions Caesar’s existence.

And since he wasn’t a great political or military leader, Darrell Bock notes, “It is amazing and significant that Jesus shows up at all in the sources we have.”²

So, who are these sources Bock mentions? Which early historians who wrote of Jesus did not have a Christian agenda? First of all, let’s look to Jesus’ enemies.

Jewish Historians: The Jews had the most to gain by denying Jesus’ existence. But they always regarded him as real. “Several Jewish writings refer to Jesus as a real person whom they opposed.³

Noted Jewish historian Flavius Josephus wrote of James, “the brother of Jesus the so-called Christ.”4 If Jesus wasn’t a real person why wouldn’t Josephus have said so?

In another somewhat controversial passage, Josephus speaks more extensively of Jesus.5

At this time there was a man who was called Jesus. His conduct was good, and he was known to be virtuous. And many people from among the Jews and other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified, and he died. And those who had become his disciples did not abandon his discipleship. They reported that he had appeared to them three days after his crucifixion and that he was alive. Accordingly, he was thought to be the Messiah.”6

Although some of his words are in dispute, Josephus’ confirmation here of Jesus’ existence is widely accepted by scholars.7

Israeli scholar Shlomo Pines writes, “Even the most bitter opponents of Christianity never expressed any doubt as to Jesus having really lived.”8

World historian Will Durant notes that no Jew or Gentile from the first-century ever denied the existence of Jesus.9

Roman Historians: Early Roman historians wrote primarily of events and people important to their empire. Since Jesus wasn’t of immediate importance to the political or military affairs of Rome, very little Roman history referenced him. However, two important Roman historians, Tacitus and Suetonius, do acknowledge Jesus as a real person.

Tacitus (a.d. 55-120), the greatest early Roman historian, wrote that Christus (Greek for Christ) had lived during the reign of Tiberius and “suffered under Pontius Pilate, that Jesus’ teachings had already spread to Rome; and that Christians were considered criminals and tortured in a variety of ways, including crucifixion.”10

Suetonius (a.d. 69-130) wrote of “Chrestus” as an instigator. Most scholars believe this is a reference to Christ. Suetonius also wrote of Christians having been persecuted by Nero in a.d. 64.11

Roman Officials: Christians were considered enemies of Rome because of their worship of Jesus as Lord rather than Caesar. The following Roman government officials, including two Caesars, wrote letters from that perspective, mentioning Jesus and early Christian origins.12

Pliny the Younger was an imperial magistrate under Emperor Trajan. In a.d. 112, Pliny wrote to Trajan of his attempts to force Christians to renounce Christ, whom they “worshiped as a god.”

Emperor Trajan (a.d. 56-117) wrote letters mentioning Jesus and early Christian origins.

Emperor Hadrian (a.d. 76-136) wrote about Christians as followers of Jesus.

Pagan Sources: Several early pagan writers briefly mention Jesus or Christians prior to the end of the second century. These include Thallus, Phlegon, Mara Bar-Serapion and Lucian of Samosate.13 Thallus’ remarks about Jesus were written in a.d. 52, about twenty years after Christ.

In total, nine early non-Christian secular writers mention Jesus as a real person within 150 years of his death. Interestingly, that is the same number of secular writers who mention Tiberius Caesar, the Roman emperor during Jesus’ time. If we were to consider Christian and non-Christian sources, there are forty-two who mention Jesus, compared to just ten for Tiberius.14

Historical Facts about Jesus:

These early non-Christian sources provide the following facts about Jesus Christ:

  • Jesus was from Nazareth.
  • Jesus lived a wise and virtuous life.
  • Jesus was crucified in Judea under Pontius Pilate during the reign of Tiberius Caesar at Passover time, being considered the Jewish king.
  • Jesus was believed by his disciples to have died and risen from the dead three days later.
  • Jesus’ enemies acknowledged that he performed unusual feats.
  • Jesus’ disciples multiplied rapidly, spreading as far as Rome.
  • Jesus’ disciples lived moral lives and worshiped Christ as God.
This general outline of Jesus’ life agrees perfectly with the New Testament.15

Gary Habarmas notes, “In total, about one-third of these non-Christian sources date from the first century; a majority originate no later than the mid-second century.”16 According to the Encyclopedia Britannica, ”These independent accounts prove that in ancient times even the opponents of Christianity never doubted the historicity of Jesus.”17
website http://y-jesus.com/is-there-any-evidence-from-secular-sources-that-jesus-even-existed/
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An "eyewitness account" is a report on something that a person has seen with there very own eyes. It is not something a person is reporting on that was told to them or revealed to them by any other means. It is estimated that Jesus died around the year 30. Josephus was born the year 37. It would have been impossible for Josephus to be an "eyewitness" about anything concerning the life of Jesus. Josephus wasn't born until 7 years after the death of Jesus. Tacitus was born the year 56. Tacitus was born after Jesus died. Suetonius was born the year 69. Suetonius was born after Jesus died. As I said, there are no eyewitness accounts outside of the Bible.
 
meghanwaterlillies

meghanwaterlillies

Well-Known Member
roger1440 said:
An "eyewitness account" is a report on something that a person has seen with there very own eyes. It is not something a person is reporting on that was told to them or revealed to them by any other means. It is estimated that Jesus died around the year 30. Josephus was born the year 37. It would have been impossible for Josephus to be an "eyewitness" about anything concerning the life of Jesus. Josephus wasn't born until 7 years after the death of Jesus. Tacitus was born the year 56. Tacitus was born after Jesus died. Suetonius was born the year 69. Suetonius was born after Jesus died. As I said, there are no eyewitness accounts outside of the Bible.
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The dearth was of course a crime..
 
meghanwaterlillies

meghanwaterlillies

Well-Known Member
Also the romans weren't any better. Everything that they did is open for us to see but why wouldn't these big bad romans stop Nero who was destroying them from within fire to his own camp.
If I had one guilt that was that I persecuted an innocent man who I disbelieved in a time were I did not want the culture of my people to become like the craziest aspects of the culture that was happening else where. I would forgive that. But I wouldn't hide it for my pride also if I was a roman and witness the crap Nero did to people I wouldn't hesitate to prosecute that. That's just me.
 
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