Pacifism - The only way forward?

[sandandfoam]

but sometimes violence is neccessary.

I disagree. I think violence is in every case less effective than pacifism. I also reject the notion of 'just war'.

 

[Kerr]

I disagree. I think violence is in every case less effective than pacifism. I also reject the notion of 'just war'.

In most cases I agree with you. However, in cases such as Hitler it was the only way (yes, I know, Godwin´s law ). Don´t get me wrong, I have huge respect for anyone who can solve a hard situation without the use of violence or force, but sometimes... if I had a son and someone tried to kill him, I probably would shoot that someone if I could to protect my child, assuming I have a gun and I am standing too far away to do anything else. It would still be terrible it had to come to that, but I would maybe still do it because it would be the lesser evil.

I also reject the term "just war" or "holy war" or whatever positive kind of war people claim there to be. Wars are pure evil. Sometimes the alternative is worse, though.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

I disagree. I think violence is in every case less effective than pacifism. I also reject the notion of 'just war'.

Do you consider self-defense violence?

 

[Storm]

OK. I have zero qulams with non-violence.

Pacifism is where I start to have a problem. It's a beautiful ideal, and I wish I could embrace it, but I can't.

I was raised to believe in the ideal of the warrior. Being willing to put your life and sanity between that which you love and that which threatens it. Pacifism strikes me an abdication of that duty.

I would love to live in a world where it was unnecessary, but I don't. Pacifism is a luxury bought with the blood of warriors. Which would be right and good, if so many pacifists didn't disparage their protectors as heartless baby-killers.

THAT'S where I get ****** off.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

OK. I have zero qulams with non-violence.

Pacifism is where I start to have a problem. It's a beautiful ideal, and I wish I could embrace it, but I can't.

I was raised to believe in the ideal of the warrior. Being willing to put your life and sanity between that which you love and that which threatens it. Pacifism strikes me an abdication of that duty.

I would love to live in a world where it was unnecessary, but I don't. Pacifism is a luxury bought with the blood of warriors. Which would be right and good, if so many pacifists didn't disparage their protectors as heartless baby-killers.

THAT'S where I get ****** off.

Absolute pacifism is a rather dangerous type of naivete.

 

[Storm]

Stephen, here's a song that beautifully expresses the ideal I speak of:

The Crüxshadows - Winterborn (acoustic)
Dry your eyes and quietly bear this pain with pride
For heaven shall remember the silent and the brave
And promise me they will never see, the fear within our eyes
(my eyes are closed)
We will give strength to those who still remain

So bury fear, for fate draws near
And hide the signs of pain
With noble acts, the bravest souls
Endure the heart's remains
Discard regret, that in this debt
A better world is made
That children of a newer day might remember
And avoid our fate

And in the fury of this darkest hour
We will be your light
You've asked me for my sacrifice
And I am Winterborn
Without denying, a faith is come
That I have never known
I hear the angels call my name
And I am Winterborn

Hold your head up high-for there is no greater love
Think of the faces of the people you defend
(you defend)
And promise me, they will never see the tears within our eyes
(my eyes are closed)
Although we are men, with mortal sins, angels never cry

So bury fear, for fate draws near
And hide the signs of pain
With noble acts, the bravest souls
Endure the heart's remains
Discard regret, that in this debt
A better world is made
That children of a newer day might remember
And avoid our fate

(prepare for battle)

And in the fury of this darkest hour
We will be your light
You've asked me for my sacrifice
And I am Winterborn
Without denying, a faith in God
That I have never known
I hear the angels call my name
And I am Winterborn

And in the fury of this darkest hour
I will be your light
A lifetime for this destiny
For I am Winterborn
And in this moment..I will not run
It is my place to stand
We few shall carry hope
Within our bloodied hands
(bloodied hands)

And in our dying
We're more alive, than we have ever been
I've lived for these few seconds
For I am Winter-born

And in the fury of this darkest hour
We will be the light
You've asked me for my sacrifice
And I am Winter born
Without denying, a faith in man
That I have never known
I hear the angels call my name
And I am Winterborn

Within this moment
I am for you, though better men have failed
I will give my life for love
For I am Winter-born

And in my dying
I'm more alive than I have ever been
I will make this sacrifice
For I am winterborn

 

[sandandfoam]

In most cases I agree with you. However, in cases such as Hitler it was the only way (yes, I know, Godwin´s law ). Don´t get me wrong, I have huge respect for anyone who can solve a hard situation without the use of violence or force, but sometimes... if I had a son and someone tried to kill him, I probably would shoot that someone if I could to protect my child, assuming I have a gun and I am standing too far away to do anything else. It would still be terrible it had to come to that, but I would maybe still do it because it would be the lesser evil.

I also reject the term "just war" or "holy war" or whatever positive kind of war people claim there to be. Wars are pure evil. Sometimes the alternative is worse, though.

Well we're almost in agreement!

Regards Hitler and particularly the holocaust - I am convinced by the argument that the isolation and brutality of war facilitated Hitler in the mass murder of his regime.

 

[sandandfoam]

Do you consider self-defense violence?

Aren't all wars begun in self defense in protection against evil enemies?

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Aren't all wars begun in self defense in protection against evil enemies?

I don't see the relevance of whether one calls them evil or not. Do you think pacifism is always more "effective" than self-defense if your nation is invaded?

 

[sandandfoam]

Stephen, here's a song that beautifully expresses the ideal I speak of:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mte8wxp3_nE

Beautiful.
I am touched by the poignancy of the sacrifice made by troops. When I see the coffins on the news in Wootton Bassett *sigh*

But like I said before my argument isn't with them. The deaths of these young people adds to my hatred of war because I consider their sacrifice a waste by government because nonviolent methods are more effective in m view.

 

[sandandfoam]

I don't see the relevance of whether one calls them evil or not. Do you think pacifism is always more "effective" than self-defense if your nation is invaded?

It worked in India.
On the other hand violence wasn't very effective for the native Americans.

 

[Storm]

Beautiful.
I am touched by the poignancy of the sacrifice made by troops. When I see the coffins on the news in Wootton Bassett *sigh*

But like I said before my argument isn't with them. The deaths of these young people adds to my hatred of war because I consider their sacrifice a waste by government because nonviolent methods are more effective in m view.

Well, I'll stipulate that war should be the last resort. However, in my view, it is sometimes a necessary one.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

It worked in India.
On the other hand violence wasn't very effective for the native Americans.

Okay, so you can cherry-pick examples which support your view. Congratulations. I'm asking whether you actually believe the blanket-statement that you made that pacifism is always more effective than violence?

 

[Storm]

The thing about non-violence is that, while morally superior, it's only effective when the other side has a sense of honor, or at least shame. When they don't, you get Tiananmen Square.

 

[sandandfoam]

Okay, so you can cherry-pick examples which support your view. Congratulations. I'm asking whether you actually believe the blanket-statement that you made that pacifism is always more effective than violence?

Yes I do.

 

[sandandfoam]

The thing about non-violence is that, while morally superior, it's only effective when the other side has a sense of honor, or at least shame. When they don't, you get Tiananmen Square.

I disagree. Empires have fallen because of non-violence.

 

[Kerr]

I disagree. Empires have fallen because of non-violence.

Maybe. Some empires required other ways.

 

[Twilight Hue]

I view pacifism and warring as extremes. Neither behavior can provide any real long lasting satisfactory results when facing every situation, so the best that can ever be produced is a check. IMO.

 

[Storm]

I disagree. Empires have fallen because of non-violence.

China seems unthreatened.

Can you give me an example?

 

[sandandfoam]

China seems unthreatened.

Can you give me an example?

Amongst others the Soviet Empire, the British Empire in India.
However I think that perhaps one of the best examples of the power of nonviolent resistance is that of Te Whiti in New Zealand.

Edit:- I read this today which I think is relevant to your question 'Dictatorships are prepared to crush armed resistance; it is non-cooperation that confounds them'