Pagan Forgiveness

[The Hammer]

A blog post on a take of forgiveness within the realm of modern Paganism.

Forgiveness is not something we find in our ancestors myths, whether by design or accident. But it is still a human concept, and an option in our toolkit.

I often liken forgiveness to reciprocity. When someone changes their hurtful ways, we reciprocate with forgiving them if the relationship has any meaning left.

A Pagan (and Realistic) Perspective on Forgiveness

What do you think?

I have to agree with the authors take that forgiveness can be necessary, but it can also be exploitative (see Christianity).

That we only forgive those that have shown the willingness to change and amend their ways.

And that there are other methods besides forgiveness that can be used for those undeserving.

 

[Quintessence]

Ah, Beckett - probably the one Pagan blog I read (almost) regularly who I tend to agree with on (almost) everything. Then, every so often he writes something that makes me go "huh?"

In honesty, forgiveness is something I rarely have any need to practice to begin with. The overwhelmingly vast majority of "slights" (if they can even be called that) that occur in my life are what Beckett rightly points out as consequences of cultural diversity. The universe doesn't revolve around me, people (human and otherwise) will be who they are, and sometimes that won't align with who I am. That's okay. I don't feel any need to "forgive" peoples for existing and being who they are, I just accept peoples for existing and being who they are.

I can count on one hand the number of humans who have crossed me significantly enough where the idea of forgiveness even becomes relevant. If their behavior was a result of acting in accord with their nature (and it always has been), I do not expect (or ask) them to change. Their existence is incompatible with mine, and I cut them out of my existence accordingly. As Beckett mentions, doing otherwise opens the door for abuse (and they will abuse you). Getting on my **** list is hard. Very hard. If you land on it, you deserve no quarter.

For others, it works differently, though. I've known people who get really caught up in petty stuff all the time and are miserable for it. I have a hard time understanding that, but it's a thing. For them, honestly? The Christian notion of forgiveness would probably be a good idea for them, on balance. That might put them in a place to be able to do the inner work needed to pivot from being such an angry, petty individual - provided they aren't in a situation where they've got a serious abuser in their life.

 

[Lucca la Croix]

Somethings a individual can forgive, some that individual will not. I personally think universal forgiveness is extremely unhealthy and damaging to many people, and society as a whole, but a few benifit (or seem to?) by taming their resentment. Bottom line I have no opinon of what a person forgives or does not...But as stated if it enables continued harm to self, it is likely unwise. If it enables abuse by the individual or group in similar ways, that can be prevented by taking steps to first reduce harm they cause self, and then others (presuming someone is not in a guardian role of family, kin or such) Just forgiving that is likely unethical, but ethics are a matter of culture and era and species. Nature can be very brutal, and we are a part of nature. But it can also (or entites) show mercy. If someone else is directing atleast the emotional impulse either way, problems may follow rather quickly.

 

[Rival]

This strikes me as being more a kick in the teeth to Christianity to bolster the cred. I'm not sure this take is true. 'Forgiveness' as a worded concept may not be present in the myths overtly, but we certainly see what could be construed as patient suffering with forgiveness. Cu Chulainn has a wife, but is sleeping with other women outside of his marriage. In the confines of the story (and in most of modern society, including to me) this is wrong, but his wife takes it patiently until one particular woman; even then she relents. We see lots of similar such stories about downtrodden women in folklore who may just be being forgotten. We must remind ourselves of the trails of blood in these heroic stories and the people who suffer as a result of these victories, the forgotten mothers, fathers, wives and children. How often do we see the child's response when his warrior father hero is gone for years? Mainly he wants to be just like daddy, but we are never told if he's missing his father's love. It takes a lot of forgiveness to see your dad come back after raping and pillaging and claiming victory, but the stories always beef these people up.

And that's without mentioning what usually happens to the daughters.

 

[ChieftheCef]

A blog post on a take of forgiveness within the realm of modern Paganism.

Forgiveness is not something we find in our ancestors myths, whether by design or accident. But it is still a human concept, and an option in our toolkit.

I often liken forgiveness to reciprocity. When someone changes their hurtful ways, we reciprocate with forgiving them if the relationship has any meaning left.

A Pagan (and Realistic) Perspective on Forgiveness

What do you think?

I have to agree with the authors take that forgiveness can be necessary, but it can also be exploitative (see Christianity).

That we only forgive those that have shown the willingness to change and amend their ways.

I think this is problematic because it's not letting nature take her course, it's too simple and funneled to be the only things we can do. I'd wager there's at least one to two other good things to do. Nature folds in on itself, it is psychedelic. It curls or complexifies so that normal circumstances don't apply. In other words sometimes there's a probably better options. But that is a good warning that forgiveness can be exploitative but can be deserved. I think to not hate is the better option, as hard as that can be.

And that there are other methods besides forgiveness that can be used for those undeserving.

 

[ChieftheCef]

The Hebrews took a lot from Atum (the Egyptian God god) including prayers. He oversaw justice and forgiveness was a concept in ancient polytheism.

 

[1137]

It is like you say, forgiveness must be earned. In some cases nothing can or even arguably should grant one forgiveness.

 

[1137]

The Hebrews took a lot from Atum (the Egyptian God god) including prayers. He oversaw justice and forgiveness was a concept in ancient polytheism.

I think they took far more Aten than Atum.

 

[ChieftheCef]

I think they took far more Aten than Atum.

Yes, I agree.

 

[☆Dreamwind☆]

The article is pretty good. Pretty common sense. Most people default to that anyway. Forgive, but not forget. Drawing lines where forgiveness is impossible.

 

[ChieftheCef]

The Hebrews took a lot from Atum (the Egyptian God god) including prayers. He oversaw justice and forgiveness was a concept in ancient polytheism.

Forgiveness is really just a consequence of being a social organism, or more specifically being a human, or an ape or a monkey but one should not forget the benefits of being a social organims, like having this conversation. We made that with people power.

 

[Tamino]

I don't think my brand of pagan ethics fit exactly either into the Christian nor into the mentioned "pagan" slot.
In Kemetic ethics, the terms are different, and justice is a community thing, not a bilateral issue between just two people.

I'd say the decisive terms are Geroo and Ma'at.

Geroo means "the silent one" and represents the ideal character that one should aspire to, as described in the wisdom texts. A "silent one" is someone who chooses their words with care, isn't easily provoked, and is tolerant of other people's faults while striving to improve their own character.

I think there's a broad agreement here that holds true in different times and cultures: it's not worth getting worked up about small matters. That will just drain your energy and cause unrest. Whether you call it forgiveness or tolerance, or gerw or not-giving-a-f.... As @Quintessence so beautifully put it: people are different, and some things that people do to me are just a result of their nature.
And if I am not being badly hurt, just mildly inconvenienced, then their right to be who they are supercedes my right live in peace.

The late New Kingdom author Amenemope has an interesting opinion which is almost similar to a Christian stance, albeit 1000 years earlier. He says:
"Steer the boat,
That we will transport the evil one across*
We shall not act like him
Put him into the hand of the god
Fill his belly with bread that you give him
So he will be sated
And feel ashamed"

*Helping someone across the river if they have no boat is a typical "good deed of the day" in Egypt... Kinda equivalent to helping someone cross the street or carrying their grocery bags

So, according to Amenemope you should be the "bigger person". You leave revenge or punishment up to the gods, and instead treat a wrongdoer with kindness, hoping to be a role model and make them understand the error of their ways("feel ashamed"). Is that equivalent to the Christian "forgiveness"?

Of course, that's something you can only do from a position of strength.
If you are hurt, if you are in a weak position and have been wronged, then you demand help and justice from society (as exemplified by the story of the "eloquent peasant" who defends himself at court against a local lord who took his donkeys and trade goods)

Ma'at, justice, means that you want to have justice and fairness in your community. If someone is doing evil and oppressing the weak, we should try to stop it. Via legal means, if possible - upholding justice is the job of state authority.

My conclusion on this principle: you don't need to forgive someone, you don't need to accept and suffer it if someone wrongs you. But you can't go and get revenge - stopping injustice and deciding if/how to punish a wrongdoer is a community matter and should be in the hands of the proper authority (if you are living under an unjust rule, that's difficult of course...but you can still appeal to the gods or try to find a local community that can assist you).

 

[Aupmanyav]

And that there are other methods besides forgiveness that can be used for those undeserving.

Headhunting - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[☆Dreamwind☆]

Headhunting - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Note to self: Do not get on Aupmanyav's ****- list, or I may end up as the latest fashion in home decor.