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Paganism, the father of religion

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
Don't flame me over the title. Read first, then respond. I will not get into a fight or flamefest. I intend to be civil throughout the entirety of this post...

It is no secret that religions borrow ideas, beliefs or themes from one another. For every concept you find in whatever religion you choose, you'll find an older and very similar concept elsewhere. If you look back over recorded history (and keep an open mind) you'll see this happen time and again.
Yes, that happens.

Probably the most well known copycats were the Greeks and Romans. As they conquered land and people, they would often adopt concepts of different religions throughout their empire. Remember Alexander the Great? The various Caesars? Constantine and the Council of Nicea?
Yes.

Without going into every single religion in the world and the ties to paganism, let's focus on a few more prominent ones, such as Judaism, Catholicsm and Christianity. This study is merely for edcucational and comparative purposes. I am by no means "picking" on any single religion or group of people.

Jesus was the son of Mary, a virgin (or not) that gave birth to the messiah. This "virgin birth" story is actually a copy from much older pagan stories. Romulus was also the son of god, born of a virgin woman. As was Alexander the Great, Augustus, Dionysus, Scipio Africanus, and the list goes on. Every major culture throughout the world and over the course of time has a similar "god man" story. Humans tend to glorify their folk heroes.
Uh, o.k., there are similarities amongst many mythologies.

Jesus healed a blind man and turned water into wine, yes? Vespatian also healed a blind man with his spittle, and Dionysus turned water into wine, two older pagan stories with striking similarities to Jesus.

Jesus ordered Lazarus to be raised from the dead. Apollonius raised a dead girl, in yet again, an older pagan story...and this was not the only incident of resurrection. This has happened countless times in mythology...or what we now term mythology as it could not have possible have happened, right? Are you starting to see a theme here?
Vaguely, yes.

To go further into ancient history (or myth...that have to start somewhere):

Pythia was a priestess who foretold of prophecies that actually came true over the course of 1,000 years!
Great, a prophetess.

Gilgamesh had an "arc" and flood story that long predates Noah.

Isis was the mother of God, long before Mary.
Only Catholics, a recent branch of Christianity, call Mary the mother of God, but o.k.

Plato was born from the virgin Amphictione, fathered by Apollo, thus giving him his divinity and mortality.

Pagans purified themselves with water, to include baptism, long before Christianity was even a thought (by 1,000s of years).
I think people have been bathing even longer than that.

The "soul" is an original pagan idea, as is the afterlife. For many pagans, long before the time of Jesus, heaven was known as the Elysian Fields and hell was known as Hades. This, of course, depends on which culture you choose to look at. Vikings called heaven "Valhalla."
Don't forget the Valkeries.

God vs. gods...the Old Testament talks about other gods, and that they should not be worshipped. That is acknowledgement that there was more than one god floating around. The Egyptian god Osiris offered his people happiness in "heaven" long before the Jewish/Christian god. Demeter's sacred rites also led people to heaven. If anything, OT hebrews were "heno-theists," which simply means they thought their god was "cooler" than everyone else's. If you actually understand the OT (not just skim over it) you'll see that.
People worshipped various gods and goddesses in those times, it's only natural that they would be referenced.

In short, there is so much documented HISTORICAL evidence that religions evolved from simple paganistic beliefs from ancient humans. You have to be open minded, you have to actually dig into history and research, and you have to understand what was going on in the world at the time (regardless of era).
I do. Mythology is quite interesting.

So, which religion is right or wrong? All of them.
Interesting comment, good OP.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
While you don't accept her as authoritative, I merely review the literature and provide it. It certainly seems like a lot of references. And there are numerous more.

It think this is the most important thing which needs to be addressed, so I hope you don't mind if I put it at the top.

A website isn't "literature." Roger Beck's various journal articles, books, and volumes are literature. So are the works of Burkert, Meyer, Ulansey, Rudolph, and any number of people who
1) Are or were specialists in relevant fields
2) Publish research (technical literature) intended to advance their fields like actual scholars do
3) Don't lie or blatantly misrepresent their own sources.

She cites Roger Beck. Here's an article by him: Mithraism

She does point out that the Mithras myth's have 3 distinct centers of worship. She also points out that not all of the similarities between Mithras and Jesus are shared by all three lines of the Mithras cult. Again she mentions that the Persian sect has been suggested to represent some other deity. What is significant, is that all these beliefs existed well before Christ.

How do we know? Perhaps some context not just to ancient history, but the history of this "Jesus/Mithras connection" as well. Why, for example, did Renan, Frazer, and others compare Jesus and Mithras as well as the Christians and initiates of the Mithraic mysteries? Simplistically, they simply assumed in general that because "paganism" was around before Christianity, all the borrowing went one way. This is important, because we don't have a single piece of evidence describing any practice, interpretation, or understanding of Mithras which is remotely comparable to the gospels or early christianity at all, until after the first century. There is not a single piece of evidence anywhere of any non-Roman version of a Mithra or Mithras which bears any resemblence to Jesus or how early Christians understood Jesus (and how they practiced their religion).

There is, however, some similarity between the Roman Mithras and Jesus, in that the Roman mysteries of Mithras seem to inolve (or perhaps revolve around) the idea of salvation through initiation. But

1) The earliest evidence of any worship of Mithras at all in Rome is at best dated to the end of the first century, and therefore after both Jesus and Paul were dead, Mark and perhaps all the gospels were written, and Christians were no longer a Jewish sect.
2) That earliest evidence tells us almost nothing. It is only the accumulation of the evidence as it unfolds in various ways over the second and third, and fourth centuries (although just what counts as evidence in late antiquity is a matter of contention).
3) Most of our evidence is symbolic, not descriptive, and therefore hard to reliably interpret.

What is most essential to understand, however, is that over the past century it became blatantly obvious the assumption about one-way borrowing was wrong, flawed, incorrect, inaccurate, etc. The so-called Church fathers certainly borrowed from Greco-Roman philosophy, but Christianity influenced other religious practices across the empire. Some mysteries which predated Christianity changed through the influence of Christianity, and others seem to have been shaped from their inception in part by Christianity. Thus this:


Just becasue the persion version did not venerate the sun has little import. All of these views began to merge, as you reference, during the hellenistic period.
Has known to be wrong for the past hundred years.

Yet, thanks to the ever-present individuals, from Arthur Drews all the way to Murdock, this the same rehashed 19th century views somehow find a proponent who refuses to be disuaded by, well, scholarship.

The problem is that while those who wrote a century ago may be excused, people like Murdock, Freke & Gandy, etc., don't just rehash tired arguments, or fail to do adequate research. They lie. They misrepresent their sources. They manage to get their hands on books which have been out of print for decades or longer, but don't ignore a massive amount of actual scholarship apart from the few which they can quote out of context and misrepresent. I personally find that despicable, but then I have a certain bias against the spread of misinformation.

Murdock is not a historian, has not published a single work in any academic journal, published any paper in any academic volume, or published anything at all by any respected academic publishing company. She isn't cited by experts except the few that take the time to write non-technical works for the public to correct the misconceptions spread by people like her.
 

CDWolfe

Progressive Deist
"Only Catholics, a recent branch of Christianity, call Mary the mother of God, but o.k."

:thud:

Uhm...if anything, Catholics were the original Christians, tracing the Pope's lineage back to Peter. The Protestant Reformation did not happen until 1500 years after Jesus. To be a Protestant (Baptist, Methodist, etc.) means you are in "protest" of the Roman Catholic Church and its teachings. You can thank King Henry VIII for that.
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
"Only Catholics, a recent branch of Christianity, call Mary the mother of God, but o.k."

:thud:

Uhm...if anything, Catholics were the original Christians, tracing the Pope's lineage back to Peter. The Protestant Reformation did not happen until 1500 years after Jesus. To be a Protestant (Baptist, Methodist, etc.) means you are in "protest" of the Roman Catholic Church and its teachings. You can thank King Henry VIII for that.

O'k. the term 'recent' was not ideal. :D
The 'original' Christians, though? You'll have to go into more detail on that one.
 
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CDWolfe

Progressive Deist
The 'original' Christians, though? You'll have to go into more detail on that one.

Peter (yes the apostle) was considered at one point in his life, the "Bishop of Rome." According to Catholicism, the popes can be traced back to Peter, in succession, as recorded history. Google it if you want the full list.

The Roman Catholic Church (RCC) dominated Europe as far as the rise of Christianity goes. Keep in mind that at the time, there were no Protestants. That does not happen until some 1500 years after Jesus, during the Protestant Reformation. Up until the PR, if you were a Christian in Europe, you were Catholic. There were Greek Orthodox, but they were mostly around the Mediterranean.

Enter: King Henry VIII of England. He wanted a divorce and the Pope said no. He basically said screw you, broke England away from the RCC, started the Church of England and launched the PR movement (in a sense). To be Protestant means that you are in protest of the RCC (thus the root word).

Why the PR movement? People were tired of the corruption in the RCC. They were tired of being told how to live, what to believe, how much to tithe, to do things in the name of God and the church, etc. Up until that time, the Christian Bible was written in Latin. Very few people outside of the clergy could read/write in Latin. The church had a lot of power and influence because no one could really refute anything the clergy said. The RCC actually "murdered" those that tried to stand up to it, or translate the Bible into English (Martin Luther anyone?).

The story gets a lot deeper than what I have outlined, but there's the cliff notes.
 

seeking4truth

Active Member
I think that paganism developed from man's original contact with God. There must have been a knowledge of the spiritual side of life to make men want to create images of it in forms they understood.

No one can say with certainty what the ealiest human believed. We have only physical materials in the form of stone statues or cave paintings and we have only our own interpretation of what these things mean.

Even today those who believe in an all powerful spirit(God) use statues and idols to aid their perception or comunication with this incomprehesible spirit. Whether you look at Catholic churches or Hindu, Bhuddist or heathen places of worship people have thought that idols help them somehow.

As for repetition of stories in different cultures that is because the message comes from the One and only God and there is a symbolic meaning in these stories to guide the people to whom they were sent. Arcs, floods, virgin births, resurrections etc. all have a much deeper meaning than the literal.
 

FunctionalAtheist

Hammer of Reason
It think this is the most important thing which needs to be addressed, so I hope you don't mind if I put it at the top.

A website isn't "literature."
I agree. And confess to not fully vetting the information I related.
Roger Beck's various journal articles, books, and volumes are literature. So are the works of Burkert, Meyer, Ulansey, Rudolph, and any number of people who
1) Are or were specialists in relevant fields
2) Publish research (technical literature) intended to advance their fields like actual scholars do
3) Don't lie or blatantly misrepresent their own sources.

She cites Roger Beck. Here's an article by him: Mithraism
Thank you for showing me the author I relied upon is illreputed in academia. I will certainly look into it further
How do we know?
My understanding was based on archeological 'evidence' that the Vatican was built on top of the ruins of a Mitras tempel.

Perhaps some context not just to ancient history, but the history of this "Jesus/Mithras connection" as well. Why, for example, did Renan, Frazer, and others compare Jesus and Mithras as well as the Christians and initiates of the Mithraic mysteries? Simplistically, they simply assumed in general that because "paganism" was around before Christianity, all the borrowing went one way. This is important, because we don't have a single piece of evidence describing any practice, interpretation, or understanding of Mithras which is remotely comparable to the gospels or early christianity at all, until after the first century. There is not a single piece of evidence anywhere of any non-Roman version of a Mithra or Mithras which bears any resemblence to Jesus or how early Christians understood Jesus (and how they practiced their religion).

There is, however, some similarity between the Roman Mithras and Jesus, in that the Roman mysteries of Mithras seem to inolve (or perhaps revolve around) the idea of salvation through initiation. But

1) The earliest evidence of any worship of Mithras at all in Rome is at best dated to the end of the first century, and therefore after both Jesus and Paul were dead, Mark and perhaps all the gospels were written, and Christians were no longer a Jewish sect.
2) That earliest evidence tells us almost nothing. It is only the accumulation of the evidence as it unfolds in various ways over the second and third, and fourth centuries (although just what counts as evidence in late antiquity is a matter of contention).
3) Most of our evidence is symbolic, not descriptive, and therefore hard to reliably interpret.

What is most essential to understand, however, is that over the past century it became blatantly obvious the assumption about one-way borrowing was wrong, flawed, incorrect, inaccurate, etc. The so-called Church fathers certainly borrowed from Greco-Roman philosophy, but Christianity influenced other religious practices across the empire. Some mysteries which predated Christianity changed through the influence of Christianity, and others seem to have been shaped from their inception in part by Christianity. Thus this:[/qoute]

I never believed the interaction to be one-way. I think it's obvious that ideas are shared between individuals, and unless some authority suppresses certain beliefs, the ideas that seem to make the most sense spread and intermingle, at the expense of seemingly less likely ideas. I think that is demonstrated even today through the proliferation of different 'christian' beliefs intermingling with eastern and new age beliefs. This seems to demonstrate that no religion can claim to have found the answer, as the answer keeps changing.



Has known to be wrong for the past hundred years.

Yet, thanks to the ever-present individuals, from Arthur Drews all the way to Murdock, this the same rehashed 19th century views somehow find a proponent who refuses to be disuaded by, well, scholarship.

The problem is that while those who wrote a century ago may be excused, people like Murdock, Freke & Gandy, etc., don't just rehash tired arguments, or fail to do adequate research. They lie. They misrepresent their sources. They manage to get their hands on books which have been out of print for decades or longer, but don't ignore a massive amount of actual scholarship apart from the few which they can quote out of context and misrepresent. I personally find that despicable, but then I have a certain bias against the spread of misinformation.

Murdock is not a historian, has not published a single work in any academic journal, published any paper in any academic volume, or published anything at all by any respected academic publishing company. She isn't cited by experts except the few that take the time to write non-technical works for the public to correct the misconceptions spread by people like her.
Thanks, I honestly appreciate critical analysis, as humbling as it is. I will get my ducks in a row.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Thanks, I honestly appreciate critical analysis, as humbling as it is. I will get my ducks in a row.
Please understand that I did not intend the criticisms to be in any way directed at you. Knowledge is not innate, and it is for this reason that I am perhaps too passionately critical of authors like Murdock. To people who are interested in learning and who are intelligent individuals, authors like Murdock seem knowledgable. And in a certain sense they really are. They cite sources, ancient and modern, their use of language is sophisticated, and in general there is nothing which suggests that they are unreliable. To pick on another work for a moment (one I have even more problems with), The Jesus Mysteries is perhaps the worst (or "best") example of this ability to convince. The authors know and use every trick in the book (and use these in their book): every page is filled with endnotes, their bibliography is vast, they present themselves as unbiased investigators who really were merely seeking to find the truth, and they even are "suprised" by what they found.

However, the only way to "find" what they did would be through a careful selection of sources (avoiding mainstream scholarship and even misrepresenting more radical, but still scholarly, works), quote mining sources (ancient and modern), and weaving them together to mislead. Even with the bibliography they supply, there is no way they could have concluded what they did.

It is of course true that there are those who refuse to read anything other than sensationalist accounts, and will adamantly assert these are as reliable as any professor or PhD who happens to work in the field. But I did intend to imply you were spreading misinformation or doing anything other than using what does appear to be an informative source. So my apologies.
 

NIX

Daughter of Chaos
How different should we expect stories of the same genre to be?

(you can use television, movies, novels as a gauge)
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
How different should we expect stories of the same genre to be?

(you can use television, movies, novels as a gauge)

Exactly. Often the 'similarities' between stories being presented in this context are pretty sketchy. Also, considering that we're dealing with a largely illiterate populace in most cases, stories can have even gone through language changes, etc. before they are written down.
 

FunctionalAtheist

Hammer of Reason
Please understand that I did not intend the criticisms to be in any way directed at you. Knowledge is not innate, and it is for this reason that I am perhaps too passionately critical of authors like Murdock. To people who are interested in learning and who are intelligent individuals, authors like Murdock seem knowledgable. And in a certain sense they really are. They cite sources, ancient and modern, their use of language is sophisticated, and in general there is nothing which suggests that they are unreliable. To pick on another work for a moment (one I have even more problems with), The Jesus Mysteries is perhaps the worst (or "best") example of this ability to convince. The authors know and use every trick in the book (and use these in their book): every page is filled with endnotes, their bibliography is vast, they present themselves as unbiased investigators who really were merely seeking to find the truth, and they even are "suprised" by what they found.

However, the only way to "find" what they did would be through a careful selection of sources (avoiding mainstream scholarship and even misrepresenting more radical, but still scholarly, works), quote mining sources (ancient and modern), and weaving them together to mislead. Even with the bibliography they supply, there is no way they could have concluded what they did.

It is of course true that there are those who refuse to read anything other than sensationalist accounts, and will adamantly assert these are as reliable as any professor or PhD who happens to work in the field. But I did intend to imply you were spreading misinformation or doing anything other than using what does appear to be an informative source. So my apologies.
I took no offense and understand. It is difficult to find trustworthy source. It's easy to pick up anything that supports your view and hurl it at the other side. If anything, like I said I thank you. I am interested in the subject and you seem knowledgeable. From what I have been able to discern, Manfred Clauss is a respected authority. Do you have any views on his work. I can't find a print book by Beck.

Thanks!
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I took no offense and understand. It is difficult to find trustworthy source. It's easy to pick up anything that supports your view and hurl it at the other side. If anything, like I said I thank you. I am interested in the subject and you seem knowledgeable. From what I have been able to discern, Manfred Clauss is a respected authority. Do you have any views on his work. I can't find a print book by Beck.

Thanks!
It depends on what you mean by "the subject". That is, if you are interested in the dynamics between Christianity and paganism in the early years, Robin Lane Fox's Pagans and Christians is unmatched in its treatment of the subject. It's also unmatched in length, so you might prefer Religious Rivalries in the Early Roman Empire and the Rise of Christianity (vol. 18 of monograph series Studies in Christianity and Judaism). One of the papers in that volume is by Beck and is on Mithras.

If you are interested in the mystery religions in general, Walter Burkert's Antike Mysterien: Funktionen und Gehalt is a classic and there is an English translation: Ancient Mystery Cults (which is probably easier to obtain than the original). The edited volume Mystic Cults in Magna Graecia is much more comprehensive and is more up to date, but is also more technical. Bremmer's Greek Religion is a classic. The generally excellent Blackwell companion series include both a Companion to Greek Religion and a Companion to Roman Religion.

If you are looking for information about Mithras specifically, Clauss is certainly an authority, but I'm not sure what books of his are available in English (although if you happen to read German, Mithras: Kult und Mysterien and Cultores Mithrae: Die Anhängerschaft des Mithraskultes are excellent). David Ulansey's The Origins of the Mithraic Mysteries: Cosmology and Salvation in the Ancient World is a pretty straight-forward text is one among the standard texts cited in any work on Mithras in the literature. Beck does have a book on Mithras (The Religion of the Mithras Cult in the Roman Empire: Mysteries of the Unconquered Sun) which is still in print and should be obtainable through inter-library loan.
 
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FunctionalAtheist

Hammer of Reason
It depends on what you mean by "the subject". That is, if you are interested in the dynamics between Christianity and paganism in the early years, Robin Lane Fox's Pagans and Christians is unmatched in its treatment of the subject. It's also unmatched in length, so you might prefer Religious Rivalries in the Early Roman Empire and the Rise of Christianity (vol. 18 of monograph series Studies in Christianity and Judaism). One of the papers in that volume is by Beck and is on Mithras.

If you are interested in the mystery religions in general, Walter Burkert's Antike Mysterien: Funktionen und Gehalt is a classic and there is an English translation: Ancient Mystery Cults (which is probably easier to obtain than the original). The edited volume Mystic Cults in Magna Graecia is much more comprehensive and is more up to date, but is also more technical. Bremmer's Greek Religion is a classic. The generally excellent Blackwell companion series include both a Companion to Greek Religion and a Companion to Roman Religion.

If you are looking for information about Mithras specifically, Clauss is certainly an authority, but I'm not sure what books of his are available in English (although if you happen to read German, Mithras: Kult und Mysterien and Cultores Mithrae: Die Anhängerschaft des Mithraskultes are excellent). David Ulansey's The Origins of the Mithraic Mysteries: Cosmology and Salvation in the Ancient World is a pretty straight-forward text is one among the standard texts cited in any work on Mithras in the literature. Beck does have a book on Mithras (The Religion of the Mithras Cult in the Roman Empire: Mysteries of the Unconquered Sun) which is still in print and should be obtainable through inter-library loan.
Thanks very much!
 
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