Paganism/Wicca for Debate

[Nisou Kitsune]

As the Paganism/Wicca DIR tend to get people cropping up that shouldnt be in the DIR every now and then, I figured I would start a thread so that non pagans can discuss and debate here.

Ill go into some of my beliefs now as a start. Please note that no pagan will be exactly like I am, and that when I speak about my beliefs, it is in no way a representation of Paganism as a whole.

I am a hard polytheist who "believes" in all gods and goddesses, from the Hindu deities, to the Shinto, to the mono gods of Christianity and Islam. I say I "believe" because it is so much more than just mere believing. It is akin to believing that your mother and father exist while they are sitting at your dining room table. I can see, feel, touch, hear, speak, and interact with my personal gods, and as my signature says, seeing is where belief ends because it is not needed anymore.

Anyway, I believe in all deities with few exceptions (for example, Venus and Aphrodite are the same goddess, but Odin and Zeus are two different gods). I have personal deities that I spend most of my time and energy with, but I can and do work with other gods outside of my favorites.

I practice Witchcraft. I practice it for worship and for self service, and occasionally I preform it for other people. I practice both sides of the Circle, or in other words, I use both Light and Dark elements. However, I dont make the distinction between these two forces other than to explain it to others. Think of it as two sides of the same coin and the whole coin is magick. I preform all sorts of spells from healing to prosperity to luck to protection. Seldomly do I curse, bind or hex, but mostly I have other options that to do these.

I do not believe in the Wiccan Rede (an it harms none, do as thou wilt) or the Threefold Law (what you do/send out comes back to you three times stronger). I believe that I can harm if the nessesity arises, and I believe in choices and consequences and not that your "punishment" comes back three times or three times stronger. Every single second of your life, you have a choice to make and then you have consequences to those choices. You choose to adopt a dog, therefore you have saved its life and you feel good. You choose to write on here and therefore you either get agreement or a rebuttal. You choose to buy groceries, and therefore you have food.

I believe in the concept of the Summerlands, sort of. I believe that after you die, you go to a place and there you live or rest until you are reborn again. What you are reborn as varies, for there are billions of different lives all in different planes of existence or even on different planets of this existence. You dont have to come back as something that society knows of, nor do you have to come back in a specific time period.

I do not believe in Justice or Mercy. They are human inventions and are not in nature.

This is getting pretty long, so Ill stop here.

 

[Nisou Kitsune]

No one is willing to say anything? Come on guys, I know there are those out there that want to say something.

 

[Herr Heinrich]

How do you come into contact with the deities? I would like to learn how to.

 

[GabrielWithoutWings]

What is your definition of witchcraft?

Is your view of the Summerlands a pleasant place where all souls go to rest before reincarnating or is it a mixture of pleasantness and punishment?

 

[Nisou Kitsune]

How do you come into contact with the deities? I would like to learn how to.

There are various ways the deities can be in contact with us, and vice versa. For simplicity, I will use myself as an example. I talk to the deities through the Circle, meditation, dream work, out loud, through witchcraft, dancing, singing, anything you can think of, really.

Its actually pretty easily to talk to them, and they can use all of these above examples as a means to communicate to you, too. They can even communicate in the mundane world as well. But the thing is, They dont always use words. They can, and do, use symbols most of the time.

What is your definition of witchcraft?

Is your view of the Summerlands a pleasant place where all souls go to rest before reincarnating or is it a mixture of pleasantness and punishment?

Simply, Witchcraft is the use and manipulation of energy to change yourself or your environment. There is more complicated stuff involved, but you have to have at least some basic knowledge of quantum physics.

The Summerlands, to me, is like a bus stop on a long journey. You stay there for a bit and you may or may not reflect on how far you have come so far before you continue on. I think of lives as circles within a bigger circle that is still within an even bigger circle. Plant's lives, animal's lives, our lives, the planet's lives, the Universe's lives, are all like cogs in a machine that keep things going smoothly.

That being said, I do not like to suppose that I know what the afterlife is like. Nor do I care. I am interested in this life time, and what I do within it. I aim to do as much as possible before I move on. What does it matter what the afterlife is like? Why should I worry about it? Whatever "punishment" I get I receive in this lifetime, not after it. There is no point in punishing a child long after they have done something. That is bad parenting, and the God and Goddess are not bad parents.

 

[GabrielWithoutWings]

Whatever "punishment" I get I receive in this lifetime, not after it. There is no point in punishing a child long after they have done something. That is bad parenting, and the God and Goddess are not bad parents.

Would you then say they are good parents, as in Good? If so, how do you reconcile this with the fact that nature is as cruel and capricious as it is beautiful?

Do you believe that humans are equal to animals or that humans are somehow higher or more evolved or more favored than animals?

 

[Nisou Kitsune]

Would you then say they are good parents, as in Good? If so, how do you reconcile this with the fact that nature is as cruel and capricious as it is beautiful?

Good, with a capital G? No, They are not completely "Good", nor are They completely "Bad" neither. I dont really view Them as good or bad; They just are. They are entities or beings that are higher than us, but that doesnt make them more "moral" or "pure" than us. It just means They are more powerful and see more things than we do. This, of course, is just my opinion.

Do you believe that humans are equal to animals or that humans are somehow higher or more evolved or more favored than animals?

I think humans are animals, and therefore are equal to other animals. I alsos think humans are the most destructive animals in the world, but that is a different topic altogether.

But, the entire viewpoint is completely different than monotheistic religions. The views and beliefs that I hold are opposite of what you would consider "normal". Like, for instance, monogamy. I am completely flexible to the idea of polyamory, but I dont have anything against monogamy either. I dont restrict myself to one or the other, nor do I go around telling people what is "right" and "wrong". Speaking of "right and wrong", I tend to be amoral on most things. Things in this world arent generally "right or wrong" or "good or bad"; they just are. Morality is a human invention, and it sways depending on the times and is therefore not a good thing to base oneself off of.

 

[Reverend Rick]

As a former Pagan, I can finally join in on this subject.

To me magick is all about balance and controlling energy. No offense to Wiccans, but only dealing with white energy is unbalanced magic. I prefer to think of what I practiced was grey magick.

I have often said, a witch that cannot hex cannot heal as well.

I have a question, does it take a witch to make a witch or can you become one all on your own?

Coven or solitary?

Any comments on protection or have you ever had an attack where you had to bounce back energy before?

Do you evoke or invoke?

Outside the circle, do you use a triangle?

 

[Nisou Kitsune]

As a former Pagan, I can finally join in on this subject.

To me magick is all about balance and controlling energy. No offense to Wiccans, but only dealing with white energy is unbalanced magic. I prefer to think of what I practiced was grey magick.

I have often said, a witch that cannot hex cannot heal as well.

I have a question, does it take a witch to make a witch or can you become one all on your own?

Coven or solitary?

Any comments on protection or have you ever had an attack where you had to bounce back energy before?

Do you evoke or invoke?

Outside the circle, do you use a triangle?

Question one: Yes, no, maybe so. It depends on who you ask, what day it is, and what time it is. Right at this very moment, I feel inclined to say that everyone has latent power and abilities inside of them, but that most people do not fully realize their potential. Therefore, it can reasonably be said that you can make yourself into a witch, or have help by another witch.

2 and 4) Both, in my case. I practice solitary and I practice with a coven, but both are different in the ways that I practice. For instance, I invoke the deities and the Elements in private rituals, but as a coven we evoke our own power and invoke the Elements.

3) I have multiple protections over my house and immediate family, and I fully recommend and very much stress protections to any practicing witch. I have been attacked by entities, however they werent through any fault of my own. I dont practice anything other than protection spells near my house, and I am careful to cleanse before I come home. I just ended up angering the wrong... person. :beach:

But, I have bounced back things at the request of other people. There was one instance where someone I knew had jacked over another witch and she put a hex on the woman. I bounced back the energy, and went to go get a glass of water. I reached for a solid glass cup, and it shattered into a thousand pieces in my hand. It wasnt a whimpy, half inch thick glass either. I had failed to ground properly, which resulted the above mentioned happening.

5) I dont normally do double barriers, but when I do, I used another circle. That way, there is protection evenly around the entire thing. I havent heard of triangles, tbh.

 

[Reverend Rick]

We used to have more Pagans here at RF that where active. I would really enjoy it if they participated in this thread.

 

[Rakhel]

As a former Pagan, I can finally join in on this subject.

To me magick is all about balance and controlling energy. No offense to Wiccans, but only dealing with white energy is unbalanced magic. I prefer to think of what I practiced was grey magick.

I have often said, a witch that cannot hex cannot heal as well.

This I agree with.

 

[horizon_mj1]

I agree with most of the OP, and as said, my views are different, yet Pagan (LHP) all the same. When dealing with issues of higher powers (Deities) I have found through the years the separation from humanity from animal is key and fundamental to reaching a "higher degree" of impact on rituals performed. I believe that Deities show us there is a dominance and accepting that dominance and being a part of it greatly extends your understanding and abilities (rather it be abilities in mind, body, or soul (consistent eternal energy).

 

[Onkara]

I do not believe in Justice or Mercy. They are human inventions and are not in nature.
.

For the sake of debate, I would say this is the bit which I find hardest to accept. Surely human themselves and consequently anything that human's do or make is still nature? In other words when does something stop being part of nature?

 

[horizon_mj1]

For the sake of debate, I would say this is the bit which I find hardest to accept. Surely human themselves and consequently anything that human's do or make is still nature? In other words when does something stop being part of nature?

Any animal (birds, spiders, cocoon making biology) that manipulates its surroundings is where it ends; this would be the literal basis. Logical basis would be that of materials used do not "poison" natural biologies in which it comes in contact with while either in use or during the making and degeneration of the material (building, technology, resource use).

 

[Onkara]

Logical basis would be that of materials used do not "poison" natural biologies in which it comes in contact with while either in use or during the making and degeneration of the material (building, technology, resource use).

Hello
Do you mean that poison or degeneration of material is not natural?

 

[horizon_mj1]

Hello
Do you mean that poison or degeneration of material is not natural?

No not at all what I mean is things such as plastics, nuclear waste ect. These materials are extracted from nature and manipulated by humanity to meet their needs. These materials under certain conditions degenerate as well, but from the creation to the degeneration of them, negative impacts on biology surrounding them reverberates.

 

[Nisou Kitsune]

For the sake of debate, I would say this is the bit which I find hardest to accept. Surely human themselves and consequently anything that human's do or make is still nature? In other words when does something stop being part of nature?

Well, as Horizon said, plastics and weapons are taken from nature, but are detrimental to the environment. However, mercy and justice arent found in nature, and so were never part of nature to begin with. Read:

"All right," said Susan. "I'm not stupid. You're saying humans need... fantasies to make life bearable."

REALLY? AS IF IT WAS SOME KIND OF PINK PILL? NO. HUMANS NEED FANTASY TO BE HUMAN. TO BE THE PLACE WHERE THE FALLING ANGEL MEETS THE RISING APE.

"Tooth fairies? Hogfathers (add, this is Santa Clause)? Little—"

YES. AS PRACTICE. YOU HAVE TO START OUT LEARNING TO BELIEVE THE LITTLE LIES.

"So we can believe the big ones?"

YES. JUSTICE. MERCY. DUTY. THAT SORT OF THING.

"They're not the same at all!"

YOU THINK SO? THEN TAKE THE UNIVERSE AND GRIND IT DOWN TO THE FINEST POWDER AND SIEVE IT THROUGH THE FINEST SIEVE AND THEN SHOW ME ONE ATOM OF JUSTICE, ONE MOLECULE OF MERCY. AND YET—Death waved a hand. AND YET YOU ACT AS IF THERE IS SOME IDEAL ORDER IN THE WORLD, AS IF THERE IS SOME... SOME RIGHTNESS IN THE UNIVERSE BY WHICH IT MAY BE JUDGED.

"Yes, but people have got to believe that, or what's the point—"

MY POINT EXACTLY."

Quote by Terry Pratchett: "All right," said Susan. "I'm not stupid...."

Also, I dont agree that we are dominate to any other species on this planet. I dont believe we as humans have any "right" to destroy this planet for the sake of ourselves. We pervert nature for our own greed and we kill ourselves and others. We wipe out species and dont even notice. Our planet, our Mother, is dying and we dont even care! We care about money. That is the driving force nowadays. We are so focused on ourselves that we dont notice the Earth warming up and causing destructive storms that we havent seen in decades and they are all happening at the same time. Im not looking forward to hurricane season.

 

[Straw Dog]

No one is willing to say anything? Come on guys, I know there are those out there that want to say something.

How do the monotheistic deities fit into your experiences? Are they just deluded into thinking they're the only ones? Or are they just very ego-maniacal, jealous, and wrathful? Polytheistic deities tend to be more open-minded and tolerant.

 

[Nisou Kitsune]

How do the monotheistic deities fit into your experiences? Are they just deluded into thinking they're the only ones? Or are they just very ego-maniacal, jealous, and wrathful? Polytheistic deities tend to be more open-minded and tolerant.

Well personally I believe that all Gods exist, and by "all Gods", I mean all of Them. Gods exist because people believe they exist and thoughts have power. Get enough people to make up and believe in something, truly believe, and they are now in existence at least somewhere in any one of the numerous dimensions.

The Gods of monotheism are very jealous, vicious, and generally hard to please. Honestly, to me the relationship between a monotheistic God and Its followers are like the relationship between a wife beater and his wife. /shurg/ but thats my opinion.

 

[Straw Dog]

The Gods of monotheism are very jealous, vicious, and generally hard to please. Honestly, to me the relationship between a monotheistic God and Its followers are like the relationship between a wife beater and his wife. /shurg/ but thats my opinion.

I concur. That's why I'm always more adamant to debate monotheistic deities. If everyone were polytheistic and inclusive then religions wouldn't be nearly as dangerous. Your views are interesting. Thanks for sharing .