Pakistan wants "Freedom to Kill Freedom of Speech" in name of "Freedom of Religion"

[LuisDantas]

I really don't get you guys' logic. I think my point was easy to understand that you should respect other people's religion by not doing what will reform their concept when you are not even the member of that religion.

If that is your point, I fear that it must be denied in the general case.

Religions should not be protected "just because", @Nanda 160892 . They are not owed presumption of worth. They are not to be assumed beneficial sight unseen. Among other reasons, because they do not converge, and can not even be clearly defined.

If anything, Islaam is even less deserving of such blanket protection from criticism, attempts at reform and questioning than the random religion would be. After all, it has a consistent history of being at violent odds with even itself perhaps non-stop, arguably since the time when Muhammad was still alive. There is no argument to be made that Islaam should be protected against all reason and common sense.

Like any other ideology, Islaam should be criticized and defended by people as they see fit to promote or avoid its proposals.

But if the basic intention is to **** the Muslims off, I guess the event of "drawing Muhammad's face" is successful to its core. And believe me, no matter how hard you try to make the Muslims "grow up" the same chain of "action-and-reaction" will be repeated over and over again over this specific case.

I agree to a large extent. I no longer expect Muslims to behave reasonably. It is a shame, but I can't feel responsible for the shortcomings of Islaamic doctrine.

I fear that there will be a lot of sorrow still before there can be healing. And I very much blame the flaws of Islaam for that sad reality. As well as the flaws of Muslims, who seem to very consistently avoid their obvious responsibility to defend their faith by reforming it.

I am well aware that reforming Islaam is a self-contradicting proposal. It is no less necessary and no less urgent for that.

And I shouldn't be surprised if next year or 2 the exact same news become another headlines in mainstream media. *cough*If WW3 doesn't happen beforehand, though.*cough*

Nor do I. That is why it is so prioritary to expose the diseases that come with Islaam and to spread the awareness of the need to defend ourselves - as well as Muslims themselves - from that illness.

 

[Polymath257]

I really don't get you guys' logic. I think my point was easy to understand that you should respect other people's religion by not doing what will reform their concept when you are not even the member of that religion.

But if the basic intention is to **** the Muslims off, I guess the event of "drawing Muhammad's face" is successful to its core. And believe me, no matter how hard you try to make the Muslims "grow up" the same chain of "action-and-reaction" will be repeated over and over again over this specific case.

And I shouldn't be surprised if next year or 2 the exact same news become another headlines in mainstream media. *cough*If WW3 doesn't happen beforehand, though.*cough*

Yes, it is clear you don't get the logic. In a free society you *will* come across ideas you find offensive. Learn to deal with it. And, also, in a free society, there *will* be criticism and ridicule of the ideas you hold dear. Learn to deal with it. And, yes, there will be people who, to counter the *death threats* of others, will push back and repeatedly show just how evil such threats are.

If you are inclined to issue a death threat for a cartoon, you don't deserve respect for your position. It really is that easy.

 

[Spiderman]

May you tell me (in PM if you prefer) why that was a good thing after all?

At first glance it appears to be a cruel experience, after all.

I've mentioned it before.

I needed an Atheist to say, "God will burn me in hell for not believing in the ********* who hides himself!!! God had people killed for working on the wrong day of the week? Capital punishment for working on the wrong day of the week? Do you know how ****ing psychotic that is??" Then he presented me with other stupid things, and I saw the suffering homosexuals went through at the hands of Bible believers. It gave me great disgust for the Bible

 

[Willamena]

Freedom has to have limits, or it is chaos.

 

[Spiderman]

If that is your point, I fear that it must be denied in the general case.

Religions should not be protected "just because", @Nanda 160892 . They are not owed presumption of worth. They are not to be assumed beneficial sight unseen. Among other reasons, because they do not converge, and can not even be clearly defined.

If anything, Islaam is even less deserving of such blanket protection from criticism, attempts at reform and questioning than the random religion would be. After all, it has a consistent history of being at violent odds with even itself perhaps non-stop, arguably since the time when Muhammad was still alive. There is no argument to be made that Islaam should be protected against all reason and common sense.

Like any other ideology, Islaam should be criticized and defended by people as they see fit to promote or avoid its proposals.



I agree to a large extent. I no longer expect Muslims to behave reasonably. It is a shame, but I can't feel responsible for the shortcomings of Islaamic doctrine.

I fear that there will be a lot of sorrow still before there can be healing. And I very much blame the flaws of Islaam for that sad reality. As well as the flaws of Muslims, who seem to very consistently avoid their obvious responsibility to defend their faith by reforming it.

I am well aware that reforming Islaam is a self-contradicting proposal. It is no less necessary and no less urgent for that.



Nor do I. That is why it is so prioritary to expose the diseases that come with Islaam and to spread the awareness of the need to defend ourselves - as well as Muslims themselves - from that illness.

So true Luis!

 

[LuisDantas]

I've mentioned it before.

I needed an Atheist to say, "God will burn me in hell for not believing in the ********* who hides himself!!! God had people killed for working on the wrong day of the week? Capital punishment for working on the wrong day of the week? Do you know how ****ing psychotic that is??" Then he presented me with other stupid things, and I saw the suffering homosexuals went through at the hands of Bible believers. It gave me great disgust for the Bible

How did you feel about the choice between repudiating the Bible and/or Christianity entirely or instead attempting to fix or redefine them from the inside?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I really don't get you guys' logic. I think my point was easy to understand that you should respect other people's religion by not doing what will reform their concept when you are not even the member of that religion.

We understand your point. You aren't understanding that in Secular lands it doesn't matter. Yes, we should respect each other, but Muslims are the only ones demanding we do so under the threat of violence and death. Other marginalized and minority groups aren't doing this.
And why not start with demanding that Muslims respect Hindus in India? Smashing alters and statues itself is very disrespectful, and criminal in that it is destruction of property. But we Secular Westerners aren't supposed to depict Muhammad?
Respect is a two-way road.

But if the basic intention is to **** the Muslims off, I guess the event of "drawing Muhammad's face" is successful to its core. And believe me, no matter how hard you try to make the Muslims "grow up" the same chain of "action-and-reaction" will be repeated over and over again over this specific case.

So should we tuck our tails and let religious bullies dictate our lives and force us to adhere to their religious standards when we don't give a damn about their religion? Preserving and standing up for our rights isn't always pretty or easy.

 

[Spiderman]

How did you feel about the choice between repudiating the Bible and/or Christianity entirely or instead attempting to fix or redefine them from the inside?

I admire Jesus for forgiving those who killed him, saying turn the other cheek, rebuked his apostle for trying to defend him, and preached "Love your enemies".

I admire the education, medical care, homeless shelters, catholic charities, and beautiful cathedrals, all of which have helped me. I don't know that Catholicism is true, but some of it is very good for society and I enjoy these services every day.

 

[LuisDantas]

You make it sound like you are no less catholic than many people who fully identify themselves as such, @PopeADope

 

[Spiderman]

You make it sound like you are no less catholic than many people who fully identify themselves as such, @PopeADope

Nearly all Catholics break the rules, or have total disregard for the rules. So your statement has merit. Now, if only Muslims would have the same attitude about their faith, I'd have no problems with Islam.

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

Respect is a two-way road.

And there it is: the one thing that a disturbingly sizeable amount of Muslims don't seem to understand. If they want respect for their beliefs they've got to show respect to other beliefs. More to the point they need to show us something about their beliefs that is respect-worthy.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

More to the point they need to show us something about their beliefs that is respect-worthy.

It has an environmental ethic that the other two lack, and it was ahead of its time in regards to allowing others to worship Allah or not, with no compulsion to convert and Sharia applying only to Muslims. Everyone knows Jesus taught to take care of the poor, and Muhammad followed suit and made charity of the pillars of faith in Islam. And while in Medieval Europe where Christians were butchering themselves and everyone else, in the Caliphate Christians and Jews were allowed in, treated as honored guests, and together they studied mathematics, science, medicine, and philosophy (historically Islam has been very interested in philosophy). Sure, we can find the good in other sources that don't carry all the negative baggage (the same applies the Christianity), but to imply there is nothing respect-worthy is just blatant ignorance.

 

[atanu]

No, guys. You don't get the point. Drawing prophet Muhammad's face is not allowed in Islam. This does not have anything to do with "growing up". Cartoon is just a cartoon, yes, but that does not mean you have to reform other people's religion. It is like, you are changing a law in math just because you are PhD in Psychology.

And, if this is about Muslims immigrant annoying the hell out of the native citizens, I think you have to see both cases in separate manners. The Muslims may be guilty in the second case but in this drawing case, really, it has happened before. They know the drill. Why repeat the hell-hole?

Take this for example, cows are holy animals in Hinduism. Should a muslim person like me sacrifice a cow in front of the Hindus who happen to have migrated to my hometown and yell "Grow up, Hindus!" (well, I heard some Muslims actually did that but they have received their punishment) and even if I did such horrible thing, I shouldn't be surprised if my disgusting act got into the internet and all Hindu people miles away in India got mad at me and threaten me with murder. That will happen surely.

Hello Nanda

I find your post reasonable. Because the cow gives us milk, we Hindus consider her equivalent of mother. Who will slaughter one's mother? Until I explain it, most non-Hindus will think that Hindu love of cow is senseless. Similarly, I see no reason why one who knows the Muslim teaching that an image is not to be made should intentionally make cartoon of Prophet just to foment trouble.

OTOH, I also see lot of disgruntled Hindus who take law upon themselves in the name of cow protection. Is Muslim fraternity free of such hatred? I do not know. Muslims are known to have damaged religious icons of Hindus and Buddhists.

In any case, I will not knowingly needle another person or another group of persons on issues dear to them.

 

[Notanumber]

It has an environmental ethic that the other two lack, and it was ahead of its time in regards to allowing others to worship Allah or not, with no compulsion to convert and Sharia applying only to Muslims. Everyone knows Jesus taught to take care of the poor, and Muhammad followed suit and made charity of the pillars of faith in Islam. And while in Medieval Europe where Christians were butchering themselves and everyone else, in the Caliphate Christians and Jews were allowed in, treated as honored guests, and together they studied mathematics, science, medicine, and philosophy (historically Islam has been very interested in philosophy). Sure, we can find the good in other sources that don't carry all the negative baggage (the same applies the Christianity), but to imply there is nothing respect-worthy is just blatant ignorance.

This goes against everything I have learned about Islam. Could you post your source please?

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

This goes against everything I have learned about Islam. Could you post your source please?

It's called "The Islamic Golden Age" and it's well known history. We've been trying to tell you for months that everything you've learned about Islam is grossly biased and inaccurate.

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

Do these people ever take a step back and ask themselves why freer countries tend to be more developed? They call for murder and in the same breathe demand respect for their beliefs, but in doing so demonstrate precisely why their beliefs don't deserve respect.

I was going to say 'civilised' but yeah, 'developed' works just as well.

 

[Notanumber]

It's called "The Islamic Golden Age" and it's well known history. We've been trying to tell you for months that everything you've learned about Islam is grossly biased and inaccurate.

You have been sold a lemon if you believe that propaganda.

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

I was going to say 'civilised' but yeah, 'developed' works just as well.

Bit of a chicken/egg thing. Are we freer because we're more developed or more developed because we're freer? I've read compelling arguments that social progress is a pure function of technological advance.

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

You have been sold a lemon if you believe that propaganda.

Ah, a random guy on Youtube. Well I guess all of mainsteam history and archaeology has it wrong *eyeroll*

 

[LuisDantas]

Nearly all Catholics break the rules, or have total disregard for the rules. So your statement has merit. Now, if only Muslims would have the same attitude about their faith, I'd have no problems with Islam.

It is a weird situation for sure, this where doctrines become less problematic if their adherents do not truly mean to adhere.

Of course, that comes with the territory when a doctrine claims to be ideally applicable for literally everyone.