Palo Mayombe believer sacrifices birds - shop closed

[Noaidi]

Also, again, I would argue you are misrepresenting what actually happened in pre-Columbian South America, where the circumstances and motivations behind human sacrifice varied widely between groups.

I used the example of pre-Columbian SA to illustrate the use of humans - nothing more.
You are accepting of animal sacrifices. What is your view of human sacrifices being made to 'provide the spirits with a life-force' in the way that other animals are? Is there a difference to you?

 

[Storm]

So, should kosher and halal butchers also be shut down?

 

[Sylvan]

Regarding proving the existence of these spirits and their effects, what evidence do you or they have? Can you lay it out for me so that I can test it myself? If not, then the animals are being sacrificed by people who believe in the existence of these spirits.

That's quite alright for you to think that way. I am personally of the belief that one actually shouldn't try to convince anyone of anything in this regard, particularly on the internet. These are experiences one has to have for themselves. While I would give advice to those fortunate (or unfortunate) enough to stumble onto this path it isn't something I personally advertise about myself outside of this internet talking head and those who have come to know me personally. Nor do I or would I ever claim any particular authority in this matter. Anyone telling you they know the definitive truth about this or any similar subject is a tosser. I have accumulated evidence to my own satisfaction. If I turn out to be cultivating an intense yet functional psychotic delusion at least it was an entertaining one.

What I am trying to represent in the tone of these posts, to the best of my ability, is the perspective of the Palero. These spirits are real. They feel them move, speak with them, and in process of training and initiation systematically test their power and efficiency. If it didn't work they wouldn't have become scratched.. its quite a heavy responsibility and one which continues after you have passed the body.

These people have as much right to think these spirits are real as you do to think they just believe they are. Who are you, the reality police? Which brings us back to the ritual killing issue. Why do the spirits need blood? Because they ask for it, and have traditionally been given it as part of this exchange. They have come to like it and it gives them strength to do work. If that is going to change it is the spirits which will need convincing more than the Paleros.

I understand your objection to thinking of animals as possessions. But the fact of the matter is, in terms of the law, domestic animals are owned. They have been some of our most important and fought over possessions throughout recorded history and well beyond. I think of animal husbandry as a partnership myself. That certainly hasn't always been the case. I see your points personally, but am not sure you could use those arguments to convince a Palo practitioner.

 

[Sylvan]

I used the example of pre-Columbian SA to illustrate the use of humans - nothing more.

Well as you can see I'm a stickler for detail. If you want to bring up something as a rhetorical example you might want to be specific about what you're talking about.

You are accepting of animal sacrifices. What is your view of human sacrifices being made to 'provide the spirits with a life-force' in the way that other animals are? Is there a difference to you?

In my first post you will find mention of the story of a Palero who became a cult leader/serial killer in the 1980's in Mexico. He began feeding his spirits sacrificed humans after seeing an american horror movie about some murderous Santeria cult in 1960's NYC. He got a great deal of fortune and fame for a short time, and made a significant amount of money in the drug trade.. often charging clients 10,000-40,000$ for death spells against their rivals, no joke. He was considered to be a very accurate reader and after it came out about the murders all kinds of famous people in Mexico had to cut their ties with him or deny they had ever met him. Do you think people would pay him that much money if he was just some BS artist?

He ended up getting caught and had one of his boyfriends machine gun him to death in a closet with his other boyfriend. Seems to me the practice gave him significant power but attracted his violent end as well. Do I think you should do that or am ok with that? :no: Paleros repudiate him (it obviously was a really bad PR), think he was psychotic (well duh), and actually have very strict rules about not bleeding near the prenda in case the spirits get a taste for human blood. This includes menstruating women in some lines.

 

[Noaidi]

Sylvan
I can see that we are at opposing ends of the spectrum on this, which is fair enough. I've probably said all I have to say. However, you provided some interesting information, which I'll try and follow up. Cheers.

 

[Sylvan]

Cheers. Hope I didn't seem too acrimonious.

This is a subject which far too often misrepresents the actors involved and robs them of their agency. As a result I get a little defensive.

 

[darkstar]

Meh, its never black and white.
Personally in this instance I believe it was a huge overreaction to shut him down. He eats the animal afterward. This is NO different than another religious person giving an offering of food on the altar. Now SENSELESS slaughter to appease the Gods and/or Spirits... yeah I can argue against that.
Mostly I think they try to limit this stuff out of fear that a crazy person will try human sacrifice next. Ok... I get that one, but if someone is going to kill, generally it doesn't matter how they rationalize it, they will do it one way or another.

If I hunt, and kill an animal. I give thanks to the spirit of the animal for the sacrifice, thank the spirits of the land and offer the blood spilled and various things like herbs as sacrifice. This is not much different from what this man has done. And if someone were to tell me I couldn't do this ritual after the hunt, I would tell them to shove it.
The only difference I see here is that the animal in question was raised for this purpose. The animal was treated better than most animals raised for food. If he simply killed the animal and ate it, there would be no problem. But because he had a religious aspect to the slaughtering of the animal he is attacked for it.

Thus I must say it seems more an attack on his religion itself than anything having to do with animal rights.

 

[Sylvan]

Thus I must say it seems more an attack on his religion itself than anything having to do with animal rights.

This never had anything to do with animal rights. It has to do with public health laws and how they are implemented. In this case it seemed that whatever task force in charge of searching out rooster fighting rings within the Cuban community stumbled upon a Palero instead and felt they had to do something to avoid seeming like idiots. Which they get away with because Palo is a secretive religion and they don't like to talk about it. And also I would conjecture because of prejudices, either religious or anti-immigrant, take your pick.

There wasn't even any evidence that the birds were killed in the shop, it just seemed like they were stored there. Although I suppose its possible.

 

[Erebus]

This was the main element I was looking for in the article:

He would then eat them.

If it's done quickly and the bird is eaten I have no problem with it. In fact I'd argue that it's better to have experienced the life of your food and appreciated it rather than buying flesh from an anonymous animal you haven't given a second thought to.

Hell my grandparents used to shoot rabbits for food, what's the real difference here?

 

[Storm]

So, should kosher and halal butchers also be shut down?

This was the main element I was looking for in the article:

If it's done quickly and the bird is eaten I have no problem with it. In fact I'd argue that it's better to have experienced the life of your food and appreciated it rather than buying flesh from an anonymous animal you haven't given a second thought to.

Hell my grandparents used to shoot rabbits for food, what's the real difference here?

I'm still waiting for an answer on mine....

 

[Erebus]

I'm still waiting for an answer on mine....

I think people can easily get squeamish about the word "sacrifice" without realizing just how much we do it

 

[darkstar]

This never had anything to do with animal rights. It has to do with public health laws and how they are implemented. In this case it seemed that whatever task force in charge of searching out rooster fighting rings within the Cuban community stumbled upon a Palero instead and felt they had to do something to avoid seeming like idiots. Which they get away with because Palo is a secretive religion and they don't like to talk about it. And also I would conjecture because of prejudices, either religious or anti-immigrant, take your pick.

There wasn't even any evidence that the birds were killed in the shop, it just seemed like they were stored there. Although I suppose its possible.

If the animals were killed in the shop, then yes I could see them shutting it down. If the animals were in the shop itself instead the basement, I could see shutting it down.
Honestly I disagree with shutting it down how they did. If it's about having the animals in the basement, then that's BS. Fast food places have trash in the back right next to the food before it's taken to the dumpster. Don't tell me a bird in a barber shop is worse than that as far as health code goes. I know full well that's what they likely cited as their reasons for shutting him down. But that doesn't seem to be the REAL reason.

We should all be able to see how our government uses laws to mask real reasons for actions. It happens all over the world, and it's probably happening in this case as well.