Pantheism & Atheism

[George-ananda]

c.

Pantheism in the western world does not assert a primacy of consciousness as you do. .

Hmmm....the eastern/Hindu/Advaita pantheism was to be excluded from this discussion? I wasn't aware of that. Odd that I got a 'Like' from the OP person.

 

[Bunyip]

Hmmm....the eastern/Hindu/Advaita pantheism was to be excluded from this discussion? I wasn't aware of that. Odd that I got a 'Like' from the OP person.

George, Advaita and pantheism are different concepts. That is all I was saying. I did not exclude anything - I just pointed out that it was a different topic.

Furthermore Advaita does not posit that consciousness is primary anyway -Advaita is non-dual, consciousness and matter are one.

 

[Bunyip]

Hmmm....the eastern/Hindu/Advaita pantheism was to be excluded from this discussion? I wasn't aware of that. Odd that I got a 'Like' from the OP person.

It's just 'Advaita' George, not 'Advaita pantheism'.
Advaita and pantheism are similar, but not equivalents.

 

[idav]

But the two pantheisms I talked about differ on the source of that consciousness. A pretty fundamental difference. Is matter fundamental, or is consciousness fundamental?

Pantheism1: Consciousness is fundamental and the material is a product of consciousness.

Pantheism 2: Matter is fundamental and consciousness is a product of matter.

What is 'fundamental' in the consciousness you discuss above? Where does it come from?

I believe they are the samE. Consiousness is material and material is aware individually. Consciousness is when the individuality falls away and you are aware of things including the self is a thing to be aware of.

I do have some ideas about the primacy, I see reality like data and knowledge of that data is awareness. I think it is part of the essence of existence itself.

I dont think you would normally hear an atheist saying existence knows stuff but the primacy of it is another issue. I do think its a fundamental aspect in existence.

I am not sure emergent would be the right term. Life was already on the planet when it came about. We are just guessing at what is alive and as a pantheist i think there is more alive than we normally realize or are willing to categorize in science as life.

Advaita and pantheism i think agree a lot. I don't see the divergence you see, i would think the universe would never bring about consciousness in order for me to be atheist.

 

[George-ananda]

Consiousness is material and material is aware individually. .

Where does this notion come from? Where does material awareness come from?

In Advaita, I view it like this. Only consciousness is real/the fundamental ground on which all this acts. The universe is a temporary play/drama of consciousness in which consciousness separates Himself from Himself and then returns Himself to Himself. Matter is just temporary stage props in this play.

So, consciousness as we think of it is the infinite consciousness experiencing through finite limiting forms in this play. These limited consciousnesses will eventually figure out their source and the play has a happy ending.

 

[idav]

Where does this notion come from? Where does material awareness come from?

In Advaita, I view it like this. Only consciousness is real/the fundamental ground on which all this acts. The universe is a temporary play/drama of consciousness in which consciousness separates Himself from Himself and then returns Himself to Himself. Matter is just temporary stage props in this play.

So, consciousness as we think of it is the infinite consciousness experiencing through finite limiting forms in this play. These limited consciousnesses will eventually figure out their source and the play has a happy ending.

The idea i have is like in our brain a cell having awareness and it taking the billions of cells with different pieces of information in some sort of oneness of the data and real-time memory that creates the streamed consciousness. i beleive the rest of reality is like that. As you break it down i think the awareness doesnt stop at cells, there is an inherent awareness due to super symetry in space and time.

 

[George-ananda]

The idea i have is like in our brain a cell having awareness

Does it have awareness? or does it just transmit information to non-physical consciousness that does the experiencing?

, there is an inherent awareness due to super symetry in space and time.

you lose me there

 

[idav]

Does it have awareness? or does it just transmit information to non-physical consciousness that does the experiencing?



you lose me there

The hurdle is oneness which is overcome by the default state of things and being one requires the syncing of the data from multiple simultaneous sources not just data transmitted. The materialistic answer to awareness would allow to build a machine with true self awarreness . This should still be possible either way even if awareness is default because awareness regardless is thought to be imbedded in the fabric of reality. I say that what you say is true but differ in the mechanics. I think awareness is a product of the god like attributes of the universe, like being eternal in potential and omnipresence is what is spelled out when general relativity keeps passing all the tests and quantum mechanics shows evidence of it as well.

 

[Ella S.]

If somebody were to ask me what my religion was, I would probably tell them that I am an atheist. I am a metaphysical naturalist and a physicalist, and most people would not consider the philosophies I adhere to religions. This is more-or-less what people are asking about when they ask that question.

However, I do study and adhere to Stoic philosophy, which includes a form of naturalistic pantheism. Indeed, I often slip into talking about God in this way and the concept of God plays an important philosophical role in Stoicism, but it essentially reduces to a personification of a deterministic universe.

I would say that pantheism itself is a form of nontheism. Some pantheists are also monotheists or panpsychists, some might be polytheists, but there are some, like me, who are atheists.

There is a lot of conflation in this thread between pantheism, monotheism, and panpsychism, but these are technically three separate concepts with different meanings, in my opinion.

 

[Balthazzar]

A lot of people say that pantheism is "sex-ed up atheism" or that pantheists are practically atheists. I personally disagree. It might be true for some, specifically naturalistic pantheists, but I think that in those cases it just diminishes the term pantheism, it's like saying money is just paper, love is nothing more than a chemical reaction, diamonds are just rock, etc.

I can definitely notice the difference in my life now as a pantheist. Not just my worldview, but my relationship to the world is literal and not metaphoric, I learnt a lot about the behavior of nature (personality of God), I sense divinity in all around me, and beginning to understand the oneness of nature and I. I learned that nothing ends, it just rearranges, the only thing that dies is the illusory self.

Of course that might have more to do with my belief that the universe is active through some sort of awareness of itself.

Nonetheless I find pantheism to be more than just 'sexed up atheism' It's a journey of finding divinity in your self, in all things in nature, and causality. Then you realize this divinity isn't separate if we all have the same origin.

Its 'spiritual' aspects shouldn't be simplified as "love for nature"

It just grinds my gears when that's how it's viewed. Someone, who thinks there is no difference between atheism and pantheism will never understand it.

What say you?

I think there might be a misrepresentation in definitions and terms. I'm a panentheist, so I'm a brother of at least a similar feather. I'm also an evolutionist, so in that aspect I'm a lot like an atheist. You bring up divinity. Well, atheist would be no less as atheists. I think we sometimes build ourselves up in comparisons, but in the end, there's not much difference between anyone, aside from perception and perspectives. I myself, use the "en" in pantheism as a yet to be in the expansion of our universe. We're not much different, and yes I see everything as divine, yet naturally so. Even cats and dogs. Go figure ..