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Pantheism vs Panentheism

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Sure there is always value in sticking to the truth but sometimes we make judgments to the best of our knowledge. Einstein was able to use his knowledge and maths to assume black holes exist years before we could find evidence they might even exist. These days we just keep proving Einstein right as current observations and experiments keep making accurate predictions regarding spacetime and gravity.

Although he was wrong with his acceptance of the Steady-State Theory and his refusal to believe in quantum mechanics. However, I definitely have to cut him some slack big time since he didn't have access to some of the evidence that we now have.
 

Ouroboros

Coincidentia oppositorum
And there's some doubt about the black holes now too. They're not the kind of singularity as they used to think, or something like that.
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I see the dualism as an illusion because the transcendent aspects are united with everything because they are each other but the transcendent aspect is the fabric and the building blocks. Still there is no separating it, if you have seen the creation you have seen the creator. To us we see a creation but we have found that their is much more to this "creation", the power is within itself and we have barely scratched the surface of tapping into it.

I've been coming to some new thoughts in regards to differences between theism, pantheism, and panentheism lately and they seem to be running parallel in other similar threads. I'll expand on it a little here.

What you say about the transcendent I think I might rather call the Ground, or what is fundamental, or the building blocks as you put it. Overcoming the illusion of separateness is in its own right a transcendence as it a moving beyond out sole self-identification with our egos. We see we are not outside the system, not isolated from each other and the world trapped inside the mental worlds of our heads, but rather are all part of a holistic, interconnected system.

That transcends the mere egoic-self reality, moving in some measure beyond the separate self, to what is also our prior-self, before the world of dualities in undifferentiated sameness. It regains what was lost, overcoming at least the terror of isolation in the world, which is the common human condition, which condition is reflected in our mythologies of a fall from paradise, our separation from God for some wrong committed in our past, etc. But is it really Transcendence in the sense of the Ultimate, or a step towards the Transcendent, transcending that egoic stage of our awareness beginning with realizing that fabric of reality we are part of is part of us?

In the other similar thread I said that I see the difference between theism and panentheism (I'll get to pantheism in a minute), as conceptual descriptions of one’s experience of the ineffable. To the theist, it is seen and experienced as outside or externally to one’s own internal reality. It is sensed as a duality with them as the observer, experiencing themselves connected to it through faith, or an intuitive sense of connection to it, like a child longing to reunite with its mother. God is "out there", external to ones internal reality, save through symbolic forms.

I'll inject pantheism here (before thoughts on panentheism) likewise is a conceptualized description of the experience of this holarchy beyond the earlier radical duality of an externalized God. Some years ago I described what you were speaking of this fabric or building blocks as a 'seamless cloth', upon which is embroidered various repeating patterns of colors and shapes, all with unique but categorically identifiable forms.

And so we as individuals each live as one of these little island universes looking over to those who look like us and waving to each saying, "Hi! Tell me about yourself," and so forth. And we interact with each other in the shared spaces between us, focused on one another and learning about our own unique patterning by seeing ourselves reflected back by the other little island universe we are talking with. And so we live out our realities like this, unaware that we are all made of that same seamless cloth woven into each of us, that we are all bound together and touching each other through this invisible web that is foundation to the tapestry of the universe of life we a part of.

So then one day, one of the island universes interrupts this self-reflexive game and sees that fabric in himself and all others and screams out to the world of island universes, "We are all ONE!" Of course the others think he's crazy, because they don't see it. They only see the differences as the mountain of self identification they stand upon is one built on differentiation, not unification, that mountain or pile of texts that say this is me and that is you. This is pantheism.

But what is transcendence? What is the theist talking about? They say the world is separated from God, but they are wrong, because God is the seamless cloth that is in all and all in it. It is not transcendent, it is immanent within all that is, and all that is, is it. So the panentheist then seems to be even more confused than the theist, as he on the one hand says all is immanent, all is one, yet on the other says transcendence is not an illusion! It's a contradiction.

I would say that transcendence is not what is fundamental or the building blocks of which all manifest form arises from, but rather is that which all manifest form arises towards, that potentiality within all that is inherent within it which flows down from the Source into creation, and which manifests itself in a series of unfolding through self-transcendence on a path of return to Source as Goal through evolution, always reaching, always transcending itself towards the infinitely receding Transcendent One, assuming higher and higher form. In other words, it is not a return to Ground in a path of dissolution dissolving dualities into a fusion with Source, but rather a path of ascension towards a full realization of the yet-unrealized potentialities inherent within form. The Transcendent is in all form, unrealized, in slumber, not yet unfolded. The realization of Transcendence is not in dissolution of duality into sameness. Rather it is through differentiation into Unity Consciousness that brings together that holarchy and that duality in another layer of self-transcendence, another unfolding, an unpacking of the Divine.

God is not just the Transcendent One; that which all of creation has fallen downward from in a theistic experience. Nor is God just the Immanent One; that which unites all diversity within itself in a pantheistic experience of Oneness. Rather, God is seen, felt, and experienced and describe in panentheism as beyond the apparent world, all manifest form as its highest Goal, it’s potentiality inherent, but yet unrealized in its fullness in all manifestation, as well as fully present as it’s Ground within manifestation. So it holds to the Ground of pantheism, and the Goal of theism. God is the fully Immanent and the fully Transcendent. It speaks from the interior realization of That within oneself which is simultaneously the Source and the Summit, the Ground and the Goal. It is the Transcendent that draws evolution towards Realization, it is the Immanent which anchors it.
 

Orbit

I'm a planet
So then one day, one of the island universes interrupts this self-reflexive game and sees that fabric in himself and all others and screams out to the world of island universes, "We are all ONE!" .... This is pantheism.

This is a great metaphor. What would it look like if you carried it through to panentheism?

God is not just the Transcendent One; that which all of creation has fallen downward from in a theistic experience. Nor is God just the Immanent One; that which unites all diversity within itself in a pantheistic experience of Oneness. Rather, God is seen, felt, and experienced and describe in panentheism as beyond the apparent world, all manifest form as its highest Goal, it’s potentiality inherent, but yet unrealized in its fullness in all manifestation, as well as fully present as it’s Ground within manifestation. So it holds to the Ground of pantheism, and the Goal of theism. God is the fully Immanent and the fully Transcendent.

Nice explanation here.

It speaks from the interior realization of That within oneself which is simultaneously the Source and the Summit, the Ground and the Goal. It is the Transcendent that draws evolution towards Realization, it is the Immanent which anchors it.

This brought up some thoughts I am musing on.

So, paradoxically then, or maybe not so paradoxically, the panentheistic God is within? If we are part of the immanent creation, then it seems it would have to be so. It seems two things to say "we are made of God" (pantheism) and "we are God" (panentheism? God within?)

Evolution meaning us? Why do we seek; why are we drawn? This would not be inevitably so, would it?
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
This is a great metaphor. What would it look like if you carried it through to panentheism?
I would back up the metaphor to speak about the theistic view first, where many of the island universes sense a metaphysical layer that is like a great tent in the sky overarching all that is, that in which they, "Live and move and have our being". They being the individual subjects and "He/She/It" being the Great Object, the Ruler, the Overseer, the Watcher of the world of subjects. They would point to the sky or anyplace that represented symbolically that which is "above" them, meaning their limited natures in the face of this Infinite Reality 'over' them.

So the theistic senses this presence, or projects from themselves their own yearning for transcendence on to this Object 'in the sky', in 'heaven', and says to others, "Look and see and touch the face of the sky. God is above!" The pantheist then says as he senses God present in the world, "God is not in the sky, but is the very world in which we live. Touch, taste and see!". The panentheist holds the hands of both and says,

"Touch the world, touch God. Taste the world, taste God. Look above, see God. Pray to God, hear God. Look within, know God. Know yourself, know God. Be God, be your Self. You are That which you seek above, which is always already who you are before you were born, before you parents, before the Big Bang. Seek above and become what you seek. Seek within and become who you are. You are a human on a spiritual journey; you are Spirit on a human journey. Be, and Become."​

Evolution meaning us? Why do we seek; why are we drawn? This would not be inevitably so, would it?
To be and to become, I think summarizes the answer to this. Why become? Love. Love empties itself out. It creates life. Why do we seek? To know what we already are, but perplex over what we know, but can't seem to realize in its fullness which we desire. It's a game that leads to our becoming, to all becoming. It's what pulls evolution to Itself.
 
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Ouroboros

Coincidentia oppositorum
"Touch the world, touch God. Taste the world, taste God. Look above, see God. Pray to God, hear God. Look within, know God. Know yourself, know God. Be God, be your Self. You are That which you seek above, which is always already who you are before you were born, before you parents, before the Big Bang. Seek above and become what you seek. Seek within and become who you are. You are a human on a spiritual journey; you are Spirit on a human journey. Be, and Become."​
I couldn't help but to say "Amen" when I read that... old habits. :D
 

The Sum of Awe

Brought to you by the moment that spacetime began.
Staff member
Premium Member
For me, it means that "everything" is every THING. The physical cosmos. However, the physical expression of the divine is only one aspect.
Hey, Storm! Nice to see you posting again, it's been ages.

That is a very interesting way to put that (every-THING). Does the other aspect(s) come from the physical aspect? Or does the physical come from the other aspects?
 

Storm

ThrUU the Looking Glass
Hey, Storm! Nice to see you posting again, it's been ages.

That is a very interesting way to put that (every-THING). Does the other aspect(s) come from the physical aspect? Or does the physical come from the other aspects?
Neither.

You are more than the physical components of your body, yes? More ranges from metabolic reactions to morality. Do you thing that the God that produced you would be simpler?
 
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