Paramatman, Atman and Brahman

[Shantanu]

So if atman is one's own consciousness - what happens to it if the person is unconscious -> atman is out of service.
Medically, trauma to the brain can cause impaired consciousness. Does that mean one will have impaired atman at those times?
Just asking.

When you are dead, you cannot feel your atman, that is your own consciousness. The atman does not change because it is made up of 'gunas' in an energy field contained in the mind component of the brain. The atman is therefore still there but it cannot be felt by the biological senses of detection in the nerves of the brain. When you are medically unconscious, that is the breathing and heart are still functional, the mind shuts down and one is unaware of anything.

 

[Terese]

So if atman is one's own consciousness - what happens to it if the person is unconscious -> atman is out of service.
Medically, trauma to the brain can cause impaired consciousness. Does that mean one will have impaired atman at those times?
Just asking.

Haha no. Our brain is our conduit to our atman. What I mean is, our atman being pure consciousness, has no eyes, ears or any physical organ to 'sense' things. That's our bodies job. If I fell out of consciousness, by brain has shut off for a bit. It's our brain, not our atman. Our atman is eternal. Think of those neon lights that show in Las Vegas. The lights are shining, (our brain showing consciousness), but our brain does not produce consciousness. It only shows it. Somehow the plug is pulled temporarily. The source of the plugs are our atman. Get it?

 

[morphesium]

"There are two birds in one tree. One of them (the Jivatma) is eating the fruits of the tree, while the other (paramatma) is witnessing the actions. The witness is the Lord, and the fruit-eater is the living entity."

What if there are more than two birds in a tree - one sitting idle, one cleaning its feathers, one looking after its offspring - what kind of ___________atmas are they?

 

[Terese]

What if there are more than two birds in a tree - one sitting idle, one cleaning its feathers, one looking after its offspring - what kind of ****atmas are they?

It's a metaphor. Only two birds. There is us, our atman, shrouded by ego, and there is God, the essence of our atman, observing our actions.

 

[morphesium]

Haha no. Our brain is our conduit to our atman. What I mean is, our atman being pure consciousness, has no eyes, ears or any physical organ to 'sense' things. That's our bodies job. If I fell out of consciousness, by brain has shut off for a bit. It's our brain, not our atman. Our atman is eternal. Think of those neon lights that show in Las Vegas. The lights are shining, (our brain showing consciousness), but our brain does not produce consciousness. It only shows it. Somehow the plug is pulled temporarily. The source of the plugs are our atman. Get it?

Got everything except the last sentence. (I hope it is not the crux).
isn't atman = soul. thats what i used to believe.

 

[Terese]

Got everything except the last sentence.
isn't atman = soul. thats what i used to believe.

Yes our atman is our soul. Where did I say otherwise? Our plugs are our neurons, our receptors.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

Prapatti (surrender) is the best way to 'realise' Paramatman.

Could you say something about what Prapatti involves, practically speaking? Presumably self-surrender, but what methods are involved?

PS I'm not sure I dare look it up on Wiki.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

No, not quite. It's an object of perception which is the reflection of Atman being perceived as individual.

So if Jivatman is an object, what is perceiving it? Atman?

And is Jivatman equivalent to ego?

 

[निताइ dasa]

What if there are more than two birds in a tree - one sitting idle, one cleaning its feathers, one looking after its offspring - what kind of ****atmas are they?

Idk. The Upanisads simply use the metaphor of birds to explain the idea. The tree represents Samsara (the cycles of birth and death)

 

[Terese]

Could you say something about what Prapatti involves, practically speaking?

PS I'm not sure I dare look it up on Wiki.

Nah the wiki is accurate. To surrender fully to Vishnu/Krishna, to say it is not your will you do anything, but the Lords. Find refuge in the Lord, whole hearted devotion, and your previous karma will be annihilated, and he will protect you.

 

[Terese]

So if Jivatman is an object, what is perceiving it? Atman?

And is Jivatman equivalent to ego?

To Vaishnavas afaik, jivatman and atman are the same.

 

[Kirran]

So if Jivatman is an object, what is perceiving it? Atman?

And is Jivatman equivalent to ego?

Everything's perceived by Atman, but the jivatman is the perceived complex of the reflection of the atman in the mind.

How do you define ego? I think of ego as beingmore the ahamkara, the 'I-maker'.

 

[Kirran]

To Vaishnavas afaik, jivatman and atman are the same.

Because y'all don't think atman is Brahman

I'd like to stress that jivatman is only the reflection of atman, it's just called a jivatman because we see it as individual due to ignorance.

 

[morphesium]

When you are dead, you cannot feel your atman, that is your own consciousness. The atman does not change because it is made up of 'gunas' in an energy field contained in the mind component of the brain. The atman is therefore still there but it cannot be felt by the biological senses of detection in the nerves of the brain. When you are medically unconscious, that is the breathing and heart are still functional, the mind shuts down and one is unaware of anything.

Its very hard for me to understand these. Let me split the para to sentences.

When you are dead, you cannot feel your atman, that is your own consciousness.

Since I am alive and normal, atman is my own consciousness - agreed.
and when i am dead, the atman does not change and i will have no conciousness - right? So should be the case if i happened to be unconcious (under medical conditions).
In other words - it is the change of atman that we call consciousness. is it so?

I have a few questions here - is atman only to human beings or is it present in every living things? If present in every living things, are they the same or different?

 

[Terese]

Its very hard for me to understand these. Let me split the para to sentences.


Since I am alive and noraml, atman is my own consciousness - agreed.
and when i am dead, the atman does not change and i will have no conciousness - right? So should be the case if i happened to be unconcious (under medical conditions).

I have a few questions here - is atman only to human beings or is it present in every living things? If present in every living things, are they the same or different?

Ok. When you are dead, your atman leaves your body, does a little housekeeping (exhaust it's good and bad karmas accumulated from your life) and reincarnate to a different body, like changing clothes. This does not happen if you attain moksha, the goal of all Hindus. You are not dead when you are unconscious, so it's still inside us. Every living thing. Everything is made of consciousness, but our atman is a much higher level of consciousness to say that of a pen. Animals, plants, germs, anything living. Our atman is non different to an animals' or a plant. It's just that our physical body is capable of showing this wisdom, we have more neurons than a cow. But our atman are all the same. Edit: our atman does not change, and will never change. It is not of material nature. It is immortal and infinite, a part of God, who also have these qualities. Material nature is inherently temporal, our atman is of a divine nature. Luminous beings we are, not this crude matter

 

[popsthebuilder]

So does enlightenment entail the cessation of self-view, or the cessation of self ( individuality/personality )?

I think it would be self utterly on all levels, as existence/creation will indeed benefit from such, and reciprocation of the will of GOD by the recognition of it and being utterly within it will, in itself provide and guide the absent self. Also the removal of self cannot make void, as it is filled instantly by the selfless conscience.

With humility,
Peace

 

[Shantanu]

Its very hard for me to understand these.

The Mind is hard to understand: it is due to the magical powers of Sri Krishna responsible for its construction; science cannot unravel the mystery, so do not worry: get on to something else like your values and principles for the mind to take note of.

 

[Kirran]

Advaitin take on Atman - there is no individual Atman, all is Brahman, but there is no variation within Brahman. Brahman is homogenous and nondual, spaceless, attributeless, timeless, divisionless. That is the only truth, that is the Atman (our soul) and Brahman (the Absolute).

 

[Aupmanyav]

Terese, you have ripened. If you want, you can have the name of Tulasi.
Shrimannarayana Ni Shripadame Sharanu - (The two words combined give this).
"श्रीमन्नारायण", "Shrimannarayana" (in Hindi script).

 

[Terese]

Terese, you have ripened. If you want, you can have the name of Tulasi.
Shrimannarayana Ni Shripadame Sharanu - (The two words combined give this).
"श्रीमन्नारायण", "Shrimannarayana" (in Hindi script).

Thanks Aup I am smiling like a sun because of you!