Parents Rights On Transgender Policy

[icehorse]

It is one thing to assume someone is arguing in good faith. It is a different thing to assume someone has a sufficient understanding of the subject to the extent that their opinions are beyond questioning. I will question a persons understanding, I will question the quality of their source, I will question their understanding of that source. Mistrust, is a good thing.

I think is valid to ask someone for their source so that you can see where they get their information from.

I think this is a reasonable stance.

That said, mistrust also exists on a spectrum from not enough to way too much. I feel that RF is not at the sweet spot. I think we're a little too mistrusting. One thing I notice is that we do get reputations. In the last few months I've heard several times, more or less:

"icehorse you're usually so thoughtful, why are you so screwed up on gender affirming care"? I know I give some posters more cred going in than others.

 

[PoetPhilosopher]

I think this is a reasonable stance.

That said, mistrust also exists on a spectrum from not enough to way too much. I feel that RF is not at the sweet spot. I think we're a little too mistrusting. One thing I notice is that we do get reputations. In the last few months I've heard several times, more or less:

If I may make an observation, your style of debate may be a bit different than mine. You seem to see weight in posters who address every one of your points, and talk at length. While I'm more the type to "pick away" at an argument. For example, if someone provides 5 points and they are all related, and one point depends upon another, I may be prone to "pick" at a single point, realizing that if I can prove one point false, the other related points which depend upon it can no longer rationally stand.

That being said, I don't see you as a bad person. Depending on the subject, I may even at times lightly, moderately or strongly agree with you.

 

[icehorse]

For example, if someone provides 5 points and they are all related, and one point depends upon another, I may be prone to "pick" at a single point, realizing that if I can prove one point false, the other related points which depend upon it can no longer rationally stand.

Yes! Several weeks ago I started a thread on boolean logic because many posters don't understand what you just said!

thank you, thank you, thank you.

 

[Koldo]

the power to influence or direct people's behavior or the course of events.

What amuses me the most is not that you have somehow interpreted 'substantiate' as 'define', but that @YmirGF liked your post despite of that (or because of that?).

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Because...?



Substantiate. Particularly the 'control' part.

'Control' is obviously a word with somewhat wide-ranging intent. At some point on that spectrum, the parent should NOT control their child. But I'm literally watching my toddler. Should I let her pick up a fork, and jam it in a powerpoint? Nope? Jump in our swimming pool unsupervised? Nope?

I need to control her. Again, I'd see it as 'responsibility' rather than 'right'.
And I need to loosen control if I ever want to raise an independent adult. And that line is one many parents walk poorly. But still...control.

 

[YmirGF]

What amuses me the most is not that you have somehow interpreted 'substantiate' as 'define', but that @YmirGF liked your post despite of that (or because of that?).

Hehe. I figured the poor guy needed some support. Sue me.

I went back and checked, and technically I gave him an "Optimistic" which is not quite the same as a thumbs up, now is it?

Tell me why I think he was being optimistic and I'll give you a cookie.

 

[crossfire]

From the article:

The Marlboro, Manalapan-Englishtown and Middletown school districts enacted policies this spring mandating teachers to notify parents, in most situations, if a student wanted to formally change their gender identity, pronouns, name, use different bathrooms or participate on sports teams for a different gender.​

I'm going to address these in reverse order from the article:

• participate on sports teams for a different gender.
  
  Schools need to get parental permission for students to participate in sports, and must specify which sport and team the student is participating in anyway.
  
  
• use different bathrooms
  
  Is there any official paperwork that all students must fill out as to which bathroom they can use?
  
  
• formally change their:
  * name
  
  If a student is formally changing their name on official school registration, then yes, parents must sign off on it like any other official paperwork. It would be the administration's job to do this, not the teacher's job.
  
  * gender identity
  
  Again, if their gender identity is on official school registration, and they are formally changing it, then yes, parents must sign off on this, and it would be the job of school administration, not teachers.
  
  * pronouns
  
  Are preferred pronouns even listed on official school registrations? If they are, then the same rules apply as above. If not, then no reason to inform parents. If preferred pronouns are listed on school registrations, then personally, I would add "they" to my list of preferred pronouns, because I wouldn't want anyone to get in trouble for calling me "they."

 

[Shadow Wolf]

There is no perfect answer here. Whichever side you come down on there will be abuses.

However, I'll come down of the side of parents rights because in my experience, parents generally have a greater self interest in the well being of the child than the state.

Again, not 100% of the time but more true than not in my personal experience.

Those parents probably have a healthier relationship with their children with the lines of communication being more open. They'll probably know and be told be the child anyways.

 

[Koldo]

'Control' is obviously a word with somewhat wide-ranging intent. At some point on that spectrum, the parent should NOT control their child. But I'm literally watching my toddler. Should I let her pick up a fork, and jam it in a powerpoint? Nope? Jump in our swimming pool unsupervised? Nope?

I need to control her. Again, I'd see it as 'responsibility' rather than 'right'.
And I need to loosen control if I ever want to raise an independent adult. And that line is one many parents walk poorly. But still...control.

In other words, parents ought to control their children to the extent it is necessary to preserve them from engaging in dangerous behavior.

Now, how does this relate to acting in accordance to one's self-perceived gender? Because this is the context of what was being talked about when @esmith brought up parents' fundamental rights over their childre (including the purported right to control) as the reason to mandate reporting of trans children.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

In other words, parents ought to control their children to the extent it is necessary to preserve them from engaging in dangerous behavior.

No. That's your words, extrapolating from 2 simple examples.
I teach my kids to say thankyou as well, as a third simple example not involving danger. I might refuse to give them something until they say it.

Is there some issue you have with the idea that parents have responsibility for raising their children, and part of any parents toolkit is control?

Do you think letting kids do as they will is a more effective strategy to raising healthy, well-adjusted adults?

Now, how does this relate to acting in accordance to one's self-perceived gender? Because this is the context of what was being talked about when @esmith brought up parents' fundamental rights over their childre (including the purported right to control) as the reason to mandate reporting of trans children.

I'm just answering what was asked. Parents can...and should...control certain expressions from their kids. Arguing about control as a concept...which is what asked for substantiation on...appears a red herring. But it's your red herring. I'm just answering what you asked.

If you want an answer more directly connected to trans kids, then my answer and @esmith 's will be fundamentally different, I would guess.

In my opinion parents should be told where there is reason to suspect they would provide support rather than harm. Much like preventing my 2 year old from drowning, part of my parental responsibility is to help my 15 year old navigate puberty.

 

[Nakosis]

Those parents probably have a healthier relationship with their children with the lines of communication being more open. They'll probably know and be told be the child anyways.

Fine, I don't think either me nor the state should step in between the relationship between is child and their parents, unless it can be shown in the judicial system such interference is necessary for the safety of the child. Certainly not something public school systems can decide on their own.

 

[Koldo]

No. That's your words, extrapolating from 2 simple examples.
I teach my kids to say thankyou as well, as a third simple example not involving danger. I might refuse to give them something until they say it.

Is there some issue you have with the idea that parents have responsibility for raising their children, and part of any parents toolkit is control?

Do you think letting kids do as they will is a more effective strategy to raising healthy, well-adjusted adults?

Depends on what you are talking about when you say 'control'. The term is vague and wide enough to cover both the actions necessary actions to ensure the child's survival/well-being and the overreaching actions that only serve to satisfy the parents' whims even at the cost of creating a dysfunctional person.

If by 'control', you are referring strictly to the former, then we agree that such 'control' should be used.

I'm just answering what was asked. Parents can...and should...control certain expressions from their kids. Arguing about control as a concept...which is what asked for substantiation on...appears a red herring. But it's your red herring. I'm just answering what you asked.

Actually, you didn't even properly answer what I asked, but I just let it be. To substantiate a claim is to provide proof that something is the case. You didn't provide proof that parents have some/any sort of fundamental right, which is what I asked substantiation for. If anything, you redirected the subject towards reponsibilities.

If you want an answer more directly connected to trans kids, then my answer and @esmith 's will be fundamentally different, I would guess.

In my opinion parents should be told where there is reason to suspect they would provide support rather than harm. Much like preventing my 2 year old from drowning, part of my parental responsibility is to help my 15 year old navigate puberty.

In which case, one should first talk to the child then and if the child says it doesn't want the parents to know, that is sufficient reason to suspect they would provide harm rather than support.

 

[Koldo]

Hehe. I figured the poor guy needed some support. Sue me.

I went back and checked, and technically I gave him an "Optimistic" which is not quite the same as a thumbs up, now is it?

Tell me why I think he was being optimistic and I'll give you a cookie.

No, thanks. I want no cookies. You can tell me.

 

[esmith]

What amuses me the most is not that you have somehow interpreted 'substantiate' as 'define', but that @YmirGF liked your post despite of that (or because of that?).

My mistake misconstrued your question.
Therefore I will attempt to answer your question.
The parents are responsible for the actions of their children and their health and welfare. In order to do so they must have the power to influence or direct their childrens behavior and/or the course of events that their children take until they are legally adults.

 

[Koldo]

My mistake misconstrued your question.
Therefore I will attempt to answer your question.
The parents are responsible for the actions of their children and their health and welfare. In order to do so they must have the power to influence or direct their childrens behavior and/or the course of events that their children take until they are legally adults.

And how does that relate to a child being transgender?

 

[YmirGF]

No, thanks. I want no cookies. You can tell me.

Naw, I'll just let you work on your mind-reading skills. They are a bit lacking.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Fine, I don't think either me nor the state should step in between the relationship between is child and their parents, unless it can be shown in the judicial system such interference is necessary for the safety of the child. Certainly not something public school systems can decide on their own.

Amd why should it be different? Afterall kids need to learn to act with autonomy and self reliance before they are flung into the adult world. But in American society kids are hardly a step above a pet that's expected to do chores.

 

[Nakosis]

Amd why should it be different? Afterall kids need to learn to act with autonomy and self reliance before they are flung into the adult world. But in American society kids are hardly a step above a pet that's expected to do chores.

First of all kids shouldn't be flung into the adult world. I was, and I'm certainly not better for it. My kids however had my support throughout their childhood and well into their adult life. Because of this they are doing much better than I did and their kids have even greater security, love and support.

Secondly, if you are treating your children like pets, you are doing it wrong.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

First of all kids shouldn't be flung into the adult world. I was, and I'm certainly not better for it. My kids however had my support throughout their childhood and well into their adult life. Because of this they are doing much better than I did and their kids have even greater security, love and support.

Secondly, if you are treating your children like pets, you are doing it wrong.

It's an observation of a society that puts the relationship between child and parent as one that is hardly better than a pet. They are treated like property, given very little autonomy until adulthood and then expected to be on their own at 18.

 

[Nakosis]

It's an observation of a society that puts the relationship between child and parent as one that is hardly better than a pet. They are treated like property, given very little autonomy until adulthood and then expected to be on their own at 18.

Would have been great if my parents had stuck around until I was 18.
Always treated my pets like family though.