Pat Condell on Feminism and Islam

[sayak83]

Gee, thanks! [Blushes]

But I've met other Muslims who are similarly informed and open-minded (not so many on RF, I'll give you that..).

What you need is a Muslim majority country that shows clear progress in enhancing human rights, tolerance, prosperity, democracy etc. Without that one is justified to doubt if Islam and modernity is compatible not only for an individual but for an entire society as a whole. One needs exemplars that are seen to work.

 

[idav]

And what does that have to do with the points made in the video.......?

Oh he said plenty points alright.

 

[idav]

And what does that have to do with the points made in the video.......?

I apologize but it is basically a bash against Feminism and Islam men which I find a bit hypocritical in light of my statement. Mysogeny is a big problem and Islam isn't the reason for it. It's been cultivated in Christianity just as much for over two Millennia. The immigration stuff is fearmongering as if Islam men are rapists ready to take over the EU, almost same viotrol a certain somebody was saying about Mexicans coming to the US. He knows exactly where the "racist" remarks are coming from.

 

[Notanumber]

I apologize but it is basically a bash against Feminism and Islam men which I find a bit hypocritical in light of my statement. Mysogeny is a big problem and Islam isn't the reason for it. It's been cultivated in Christianity just as much for over two Millennia. The immigration stuff is fearmongering as if Islam men are rapists ready to take over the EU, almost same viotrol a certain somebody was saying about Mexicans coming to the US. He knows exactly where the "racist" remarks are coming from.

I would not put Donald Trump in the same category as these perps - The Betrayed Girls: an authoritative film on Rochdale grooming scandal that packs the punch of superlative BBC series Three Girls: review

 

[YmirGF]

I would not put Donald Trump in the same category as these perps - The Betrayed Girls: an authoritative film on Rochdale grooming scandal that packs the punch of superlative BBC series Three Girls: review

This might help. The full documentary.

 

[icehorse]

I don't prey on the vulnerable. And I sure as hell didn't learn the Qur'aan parrot fashion. Moreover, I scrutinise and question it all the time!

Just because some Muslims have been taught or experienced a deeply patriarchal, nay, abusive form of Islaam, doesn't mean that's every Muslim's understanding or experience of their religion (or sacred text).

For some of us, it is a way to understand and experience the world around us, indeed interact with it in a respectful way, a framework and a space within which we can learn and grow in every sense of the word.

First, I applaud your perspective. Next, I mean no snarkiness with this question: If you take this perspective, then why try to force Islam into a reasonable set of ideas at all? What does Islam have to offer you? (I've asked this question many times, and never felt convinced by the answers. A lot of times I'll get answers that conflate a culture with the ideas of Islam. So, I don't know your cultural background, maybe your culture is strongly tied to Islam?)

 

[Rational Agnostic]

I apologize but it is basically a bash against Feminism and Islam men which I find a bit hypocritical in light of my statement. Mysogeny is a big problem and Islam isn't the reason for it. It's been cultivated in Christianity just as much for over two Millennia. The immigration stuff is fearmongering as if Islam men are rapists ready to take over the EU, almost same viotrol a certain somebody was saying about Mexicans coming to the US. He knows exactly where the "racist" remarks are coming from.

Actually, no, misogyny has most definitely not been cultivated in Christianity just as much as it has in Islam. In Muslim countries, women are treated horrifically. Women have been arrested in Saudi Arabia for driving cars or even wearing skirts (in 120 degree weather). The horrible practice of female genital mutilation is continually practiced in Islamic countries, and women are basically treated like property. It is preposterous for you to say that Christianity treats women just as badly as Islam. Did you know that the Qur'an actually instructs Muslim men to beat their wives? BTW, it is *not* racist to point out the evils of a religion. Islam is not a race.

 

[idav]

Actually, no, misogyny has most definitely not been cultivated in Christianity just as much as it has in Islam. In Muslim countries, women are treated horrifically. Women have been arrested in Saudi Arabia for driving cars or even wearing skirts (in 120 degree weather). The horrible practice of female genital mutilation is continually practiced in Islamic countries, and women are basically treated like property. It is preposterous for you to say that Christianity treats women just as badly as Islam. Did you know that the Qur'an actually instructs Muslim men to beat their wives? BTW, it is *not* racist to point out the evils of a religion. Islam is not a race.

Unlike in the EU, the US has to deal with the Mysogeny coming from a culture south of our border, but for Trump to blanket call people south of the border rapists is going to far, and that is precisely what Consell did. Oh it must be that 120 degree weather as you get closer to ge equator.

Oh I know I've heard it before, Mexican is not race it's a nationality etc. These parallels are getting uncanny.

 

[Rational Agnostic]

What you need is a Muslim majority country that shows clear progress in enhancing human rights, tolerance, prosperity, democracy etc.

That ain't gonna happen.

 

[Rational Agnostic]

Unlike in the EU, the US has to deal with the Mysogeny coming from a culture south of our border, but for Trump to blanket call people south of the border rapists is going to far, and that is precisely what Consell did. Oh it must be that 120 degree weather as you get closer to ge equator.

Oh I know I've heard it before, Mexican is not race it's a nationality etc. These parallels are getting uncanny.

The Mexican analogy is not accurate. Islam is a RELIGION. You can convert to it, and you can leave it. It is a belief system. The point is that people cannot change their race or their nationality. They can change their belief systems. BTW, Condell never said that all Muslim men are rapists. In fact, in another video, Condell actually states that he has nothing against Muslims as individuals, simply that he opposes the religion as a whole. He states that he has Muslim friends. However, the percentage of Muslim men who are misogynistic and abusive of women is far higher than men of other demographics. It is plain to see when you look at how women are treated in Muslim-majority countries.

 

[idav]

What you need is a Muslim majority country that shows clear progress in enhancing human rights, tolerance, prosperity, democracy etc. Without that one is justified to doubt if Islam and modernity is compatible not only for an individual but for an entire society as a whole. One needs exemplars that are seen to work.

That ain't gonna happen.

You simply need to show that Muslims can assimilate and they do just that in the US.
see this thread:
American Muslims Are Now More Accepting Of Homosexuality Than White Evangelicals

 

[Rational Agnostic]

You simply need to show that Muslims can assimilate and they do just that in the US.
see this thread:
American Muslims Are Now More Accepting Of Homosexuality Than White Evangelicals

Muslims are a minority in the US. I said that it will never happen in Muslim majority countries, which are the worst countries in the world. Did you know that 90% of women in Pakistan are domestically abused? We need to call out abuses of human rights when we see them, and you can't put an end to this abuse unless you are honest about its source.

 

[Vee]

My pleasure, Vee.

At first I extrapolated from Christianity and assumed much about Islaam, choosing to err on the side of caution whenever possible.

Gradually along the years I learned, among other things, that the Qur'aan is simply not helpful on that regard. It keeps insisting that whether people adopt Islaam is a very big deal; that Muslims should not hesitate to side with other Muslims and refuse to trust non-Muslims quite as much; that it is all-out wrong and dangerous to refuse Abrahamic monotheism unless one did not have a "fair chance" of learning of it; that non-believers in Islaam should be either pitied or despised, with little in the way of alternatives.

In short, it relies entirely on a tribal mentality that divides people between those from within the tribe and those from without, and derives its directives from there. A rather primitive and unsuitable attempt at a moral structure, particularly given the current population levels and its demands.

Theologically, it is also rather fragile, leading to what often seems to be a deliberate failure to even attempt to understand religious postures that are not obsessively monotheistic and proselitist. It is rather dismaying. To the best of my understanding, Muslims seem to literally be incapable of understanding the differences among the concepts of idolatry, polytheism, trinitarianism, henotheism and even paganism, for instance - and worse, there is considerable reluctance to even admit that there is validity in attempting to understand those.

I have actually come to conclude that it is a mistake to even call Islaam a religion. A religion is supposed to take itself somewhat seriously (as opposed to obsessively), to have the courage to deal with the reality of the world as it is, and to encourage the development of personal religious courage and moral values. Islaam is either ill-prepared or outright inimical to all of those goals.

Thank you Luis, that was brilliant and based on my personal experience I have to agree with you.
It still breaks my heart though when I see innocent muslims being harassed and abused by people who don't even know them just because they are muslim. I hate every form of injustice and it is very unfair to put everyone in the same box and treat them so badly when I'm sure among the millions of muslims in the world there are lovely people.

 

[sayak83]

You simply need to show that Muslims can assimilate and they do just that in the US.
see this thread:
American Muslims Are Now More Accepting Of Homosexuality Than White Evangelicals

No that is not enough.

 

[idav]

Muslims are a minority in the US.

I don't think its necessary for them to be majority, like I said.

No that is not enough.

Ok, we disagree then. If you were to ask me 6 months ago if what I pointed out were even possible I would have laughed. Assimilation is a big deal. The fact that they are making more progress here in the states than their hardcore Christian counterparts speaks volumes.

 

[LuisDantas]

It still breaks my heart though when I see innocent muslims being harassed and abused by people who don't even know them just because they are muslim. I hate every form of injustice and it is very unfair to put everyone in the same box and treat them so badly when I'm sure among the millions of muslims in the world there are lovely people.

I could not agree more.

 

[sayak83]

I don't think its necessary for them to be majority, like I said.


Ok, we disagree then. If you were to ask me 6 months ago if what I pointed out were even possible I would have laughed. Assimilation is a big deal. The fact that they are making more progress here in the states than their hardcore Christian counterparts speaks volumes.

It's a difference between having some people who are Marxists and Marxists running the country.

 

[icehorse]

Thank you Luis, that was brilliant and based on my personal experience I have to agree with you.
It still breaks my heart though when I see innocent muslims being harassed and abused by people who don't even know them just because they are muslim. I hate every form of injustice and it is very unfair to put everyone in the same box and treat them so badly when I'm sure among the millions of muslims in the world there are lovely people.

About 1/3 to a 1/2 of the world's Muslims want Sharia to be the law of the land. In other words, this 500-700 million group of people are against secularism.

If you are a Muslim who defends secularism, you are - by the definition of Islam - being un-Islamic. To me, such Muslims ought to create a new sect or denomination. It feels hypocritical for a Muslim to ask not to be harassed when their ideology is deserving of harassment. To me their ideology is all sorts of horrible. So Islam is not as horrible as Nazism, but it's horrible. Given that disclaimer, most of us agree that we ought to harass and marginalize Nazis relentlessly. Why shouldn't harass everyone who promotes horrible ideologies? Why should Muslims get a pass?

 

[Rational Agnostic]

About 1/3 to a 1/2 of the world's Muslims want Sharia to be the law of the land. In other words, this 500-700 million group of people are against secularism.

If you are a Muslim who defends secularism, you are - by the definition of Islam - being un-Islamic. To me, such Muslims ought to create a new sect or denomination. It feels hypocritical for a Muslim to ask not to be harassed when their ideology is deserving of harassment. To me their ideology is all sorts of horrible. So Islam is not as horrible as Nazism, but it's horrible. Given that disclaimer, most of us agree that we ought to harass and marginalize Nazis relentlessly. Why shouldn't harass everyone who promotes horrible ideologies? Why should Muslims get a pass?

Agree with everything except your statement that Islam is not as horrible as Nazism. Fundamentalist Islam, which is to say, a literal interpretation of the Qur'an is equally as bad as Nazism. Now, most American Muslims are not literalists (thankfully), so they should not be grouped with the extremists. I once went to a social-justice propaganda play put on my some brainwashed students who claimed that there is nothing violent or misogynystic about Islam, and that there are no passages in the Qur'an that encourage misogyny and violence against unbelievers. I was outraged. How can we, as a civilized society that values freedom and equality, blatantly LIE about the facts of Islam.

 

[Notanumber]

Is it the worst part of the Sharia?