"Patriarchy"

[dust1n]

How doesnt it? . If the village is attacked and the burden of protection lands on the shoulder of one gender which will be the one risking its life first while the other gender hides then there is clearly a gender being more disposable than the other.

Because you willingly go protect your village/family/loved ones does not indicate to me that society is regarding you disposable. Not to mention, if the males lose, everyone is probably going to die anyway, or be abducted, or rape and abandoned. So in what sense are men disposable in this situation?

 

[Me Myself]

It doesn't follow that having a veto over which males can have power makes the resulting society matriarchal. Women elected Obama, but that doesn't make the US a matriarchy.

I am not saying it is matriarchal, I am saying it is not equal.

Women that elected Obama each had a vote that was worth notre and not less than the votes of men. In the iriquois society, men cant "vote" for the people in charge.

Also, women don't have to have sex and risk pregnancy and men don't have to fight. Aboriginal people had nothing resembling a draft.

You sure about that?

 

[Me Myself]

Because you willingly go protect your village/family/loved ones does not indicate to me that society is regarding you disposable. Not to mention, if the males lose, everyone is probably going to die anyway, or be abducted, or rape and abandoned. So in what sense are men disposable in this situation?

In the way that if the lose a lot of men but succeed, it was better to lose men than to have women help with the protection and lose less people.

I am not saying this was bad then, it was what made sense because it was needed for survival: a man can give babies to lots of women. A woman can only create one baby a year, so each women counts, while men are more biologically disposable for such a small tribe situation where every head counts.

What I am saying is that this situation did not happen because of patriarchy, yet good time after this stopped being needed or useful it continued. This is because customs take time to fade away. All customs.

 

[dust1n]

In the way that if the lose a lot of men but succeed, it was better to lose men than to have women help with the protection and lose less people.

But that's not what it means to be disposable.

Definition of disposable in Oxford Dictionaries (British & World English)

Definition of disposable
adjective

• 1(of an article) intended to be thrown away after use:disposable nappies a disposable razor
• (of a person or idea) able to be dispensed with; easily dismissed:the poor performer is motivated by the fear that he or she is highly disposable

• 2(chiefly of financial assets) readily available for the owner’s use as required:he made a mental inventory of his disposable assets

noun

an article designed to be thrown away after use:don’t buy disposables, such as cups and plates



Why do people twist words to fit their agenda? This masculinism must change words for propaganda. How inexcusable.

 

[Alceste]

I am not saying it is matriarchal, I am saying it is not equal.

Women that elected Obama each had a vote that was worth notre and not less than the votes of men. In the iriquois society, men cant "vote" for the people in charge.

You sure about that?

Yes, I'm sure. There was no draft in any aboriginal society ever, anywhere.

And you don't know whether men had any say in who became political leaders for the Iroquois. Most anthropoligists refer to it as an egalitarian society, not a matriarchy. I'm happy to defer to their judgment.

 

[Me Myself]

But that's not what it means to be disposable.

Definition of disposable in Oxford Dictionaries (British & World English)

Definition of disposable
adjective

• 1(of an article) intended to be thrown away after use:disposable nappies a disposable razor
• (of a person or idea) able to be dispensed with; easily dismissed:the poor performer is motivated by the fear that he or she is highly disposable

• 2(chiefly of financial assets) readily available for the owner’s use as required:he made a mental inventory of his disposable assets

noun

an article designed to be thrown away after use:don’t buy disposables, such as cups and plates



Why do people twist words to fit their agenda? This masculinism must change words for propaganda. How inexcusable.

dispensable if you may.

The point stands. Society is more prone to risk a mens life instead of a womans life.

 

[Alceste]

But that's not what it means to be disposable.

Definition of disposable in Oxford Dictionaries (British & World English)

Definition of disposable
adjective

• 1(of an article) intended to be thrown away after use:disposable nappies a disposable razor
• (of a person or idea) able to be dispensed with; easily dismissed:the poor performer is motivated by the fear that he or she is highly disposable

• 2(chiefly of financial assets) readily available for the owner’s use as required:he made a mental inventory of his disposable assets

noun

an article designed to be thrown away after use:don’t buy disposables, such as cups and plates



Why do people twist words to fit their agenda? This masculinism must change words for propaganda. How inexcusable.

He's just really struggling to find a way to argue that men have been oppressed to the same degree women have, historically speaking. If you're not willing to play fast and loose with the definitions of words, you're never going to get there.

 

[Me Myself]

He's just really struggling to find a way to argue that men have been oppressed to the same degree women have, historically speaking. If you're not willing to play fast and loose with the definitions of words, you're never going to get there.

When did I ever say same degree?

I dont believe in fights to see who is the biggest victim. Just in acknowledging the injustices that arethere, properly label them and terminate them as necessary. Thats it.

 

[Alceste]

When did I ever say same degree?

I dont believe in fights to see who is the biggest victim. Just in acknowledging the injustices that arethere, properly label them and terminate them as necessary. Thats it.

Sounds good to me. Go for it!

 

[dust1n]

He's just really struggling to find a way to argue that men have been oppressed to the same degree women have, historically speaking. If you're not willing to play fast and loose with the definitions of words, you're never going to get there.

That's my point. It's a whole double standard applied to two different sets of word. If "patriarchy" is hyperbole as used by feminists, then male disposability is total hyperbole if it just blankets over every society because men happens to be in armies. Big difference between being a warrior and being disposable or dispensable.

Armies did start mass grinding human males until WWI.

Even if this all the case, Warren's (or whatever is lame name is) own solution to this problem is a call to the end of war.

 

[dust1n]

When did I ever say same degree?

I dont believe in fights to see who is the biggest victim. Just in acknowledging the injustices that arethere, properly label them and terminate them as necessary. Thats it.

In your relabeling of a whole section of philosophy you have yet to even read into, do you think you could at least apply the same standards between what words definitions you feel should be redefined and which ones shouldn't?

 

[Me Myself]

In your relabeling of a whole section of philosophy you have yet to even read into, do you think you could at least apply the same standards between what words definitions you feel should be redefined and which ones shouldn't?

You probably missed the post.

I said it sounded reasonable to rename it as male dispensability. That is not the main subject of this thread though, but still I gave you your answer: sure, its not as accurate.

That said, I find a polarising conceptualisation to be more problematic.

 

[dust1n]

You probably missed the post.

I said it sounded reasonable to rename it as male dispensability. That is not the main subject of this thread though, but still I gave you your answer: sure, its not as accurate.

That said, I find a polarising conceptualisation to be more problematic.

Yup, and assuming all men in a society or as useful as tissue paper because they were in the army isn't 'polarizing conceptualization,' and calling a society where men enjoy twice as much power then women (actually less in America in government and business) a patriarchy is. How fun this giant word game has been the last 800 pages.

 

[Me Myself]

Yup, and assuming all men in a society or as useful as tissue paper because they were in the army isn't 'polarizing conceptualization,'

Because they ware forced to risk their lifes and kill other men for the sole purpose of having a penis you mean.

As I said, you are right, its an hyperbole, dispensable would be a more suitable term. But it is not polarysing. Most of all because it is only talking about one discrimination. It doesnt pretend everything wrong with gender roles come from male disposability.

' and calling a society where men enjoy twice as much power then women (actually less in America in government and business) a patriarchy is. How fun this giant word game has been the last 800 pages.

First of all, its not about calling a patriarchy a patriarchy, is about calling something non patriarchal as a patriarchy, like the example of male dispensability. If men have unfair political power because of being men then sure, call that a patriarchy. But other gender discriminations are their own monster.

 

[dust1n]

Because they ware forced to risk their lifes and kill other men for the sole purpose of having a penis you mean.

As I said, you are right, its an hyperbole, dispensable would be a more suitable term. But it is not polarysing. Most of all because it is only talking about one discrimination. It doesnt pretend everything wrong with gender roles come from male disposability.

Even dispensable doesn't work...

dis·pens·a·ble (d

-sp

n

s

-b

l)adj.1. Not essential; unimportant: dispensable items of personal property.
2. Capable of being dispensed, administered, or distributed: dispensable drugs.
3. Subject to dispensation, as a vow or church law.

...

dis·pense

Verb

• Distribute or provide (a service or information) to a number of people.
• (of a machine) Supply (a product or cash).

EVEN women were dispensable (and still, technically, are, because like will go on if anyone dies, for any culture). So why is it fair to say that the Iroquois nation women were practicing in 'male depensability' when women were also dispensable in the society? What's the discrimination?

First of all, its not about calling a patriarchy a patriarchy, is about calling something non patriarchal as a patriarchy, like the example of male dispensability.

Could you explain what this sentence means, in terms of 'calling something non patriarchal as a patriarchy' and its 'like'ness to 'the example of male dispensability.' I don't know what you meant by that.

If men have unfair political power because of being men then sure, call that a patriarchy. But other gender discriminations are their own monster.

I see. So your contention now is that discrimination against men can't be the result of patriarchy. Is that a correct summation?