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Patrick Moore, co-founder of Greenpeace, has lost his marbles?

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
Modern reactors aren't going to be like Chernobyl's. The dangers aren't what they were.

I've seen few credible attempts at even imagining a steady source of post-carbon energy without new reactors. If the choice is between nuclear and greater than 2 degrees of warming I reckon we should go with nuclear.

Perhaps temporarily. Ultimately I think we have to get to fusion.

As far as modern reactors, I have no problem acknowledging that they are safer. But there are still at least two issues:

1 - No man made machine is EVER 100% perfect. Occasionally even the best made machines fail. Again, this is just statistics.
2 - Even if we could make perfect fission reactors (which we can't), we still need to store the waste safely for 100,000 years.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Modern reactors aren't going to be like Chernobyl's. The dangers aren't what they were.

I've seen few credible attempts at even imagining a steady source of post-carbon energy without new reactors. If the choice is between nuclear and greater than 2 degrees of warming I reckon we should go with nuclear.
While I distrust nuclear energy, I agree.
I'm curious if those advocating urgent anti-AGW action
are ready to include it in the mix of energy technologies.

What must happen.....
- All plants must be of the same design. Ameristan had a problem
of too many different designs with different control systems. This
created unmanageable complexity.
- The design should be failsafe. Loss of any critical component
should result in safe passive shutdown. This is doable.
- Waste storage must be fully addressed.
- Every plant should have a Safety Dog.
 

Shad

Veteran Member
Your arguments could be countered by anyone with access to a search engine. But you put so little effort into them that's it's just not worth the effort to correct you.

Yet you failed to counter one with your search engine. Hand-waving assertion, nothing more. Try to put some effort in son.

I put more effort in than AOC did yet here you are supporting her "resolution". Hilarious.
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
Yet you failed to counter one with your search engine. Hand-waving assertion, nothing more. Try to put some effort in son.

I put more effort in than AOC did yet here you are supporting her "resolution". Hilarious.

Okay Shad, how many gallons of fresh, potable water does it take to produce one pound of beef? Why is beef relatively cheap in the US? How does the industry surrounding beef production impact our topsoil? what is the rate of depletion of our essential aquifers such as the Ogallala aquifer.

I know the answers to these questions, do you? Because if you do, you cannot possibly conclude that the answer includes increasing livestock production.

I have given you far better answers than you have given me. When I say that the science of statistics tells us that there is no such thing as a perfect machine, you have provided no thoughtful response.

These are just two examples of our exchanges, but from my perspective they are indicative of the broader pattern. That's why I think the civil thing to do is to agree to disagree. I believe my claims are well researched and well thought out. It's clear that you disagree, but in my mind, your responses have seemed more emotionally based than thoughtful. You have yet provided any nuance, simply your opinion. And then, you started in with the ad hominems. At this point, I'm not really making this post for you. I'm making it for anyone else who's reading this thread and thinks for one minute that you've backed up any of your claims.
 

Shad

Veteran Member
Okay Shad, how many gallons of fresh, potable water does it take to produce one pound of beef?

1 gallon per 100 pounds.

Why is beef relatively cheap in the US?

It actually isn't as you are conflating cuts and grades as if all the same

How does the industry surrounding beef production impact our topsoil?

It helps it due to pasture prevents erosion.

what is the rate of depletion of our essential aquifers such as the Ogallala aquifer.

No idea. However it is feeding land that is not as suitable for farming hence why the water use is so high. I have zero issues cutting those farms off.


I know the answers to these questions, do you? Because if you do, you cannot possibly conclude that the answer includes increasing livestock production.

You are projecting a specific area as if that was an area I was talking about. All while ignoring I already pointed out a part of the problem is using arid land for farming. Ergo both my suggestions in conjunction. I also pointed out switching to higher value crops instead of staple food crops. Try again.


I have given you far better answers than you have given me.

You provided nothing of substance. You just whined.

When I say that the science of statistics tells us that there is no such thing as a perfect machine, you have provided no thoughtful response.

As the point is irrelevant with the clean reactor designs. Yawn. Did you apply your own criticism to your green energy? Nope. Extend your logic regarding all machines.. ergo we shouldn't use it at nothing is 100%? What nonsense.


These are just two examples of our exchanges, but from my perspective they are indicative of the broader pattern.

Of what exactly. You babbling while providing no plans? Impressive

That's why I think the civil thing to do is to agree to disagree.

Disagree about what? You babbled incorrectly about nuclear power and proposed no solutions.

I believe my claims are well researched and well thought out. It's clear that you disagree, but in my mind, your responses have seemed more emotionally based than thoughtful.

You didn't cite any research and your claims are nothing new nor required any research at all.

You have yet provided any nuance, simply your opinion.

Yes an opinion on solutions while you offered nothing

And then, you started in with the ad hominems.

You are using the fallacy wrong. Try again. Maybe look it up before babbling.


At this point, I'm not really making this post for you. I'm making it for anyone else who's reading this thread and thinks for one minute that you've backed up any of your claims.

Sure you are.
 
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icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
1 gallon per 100 pounds.

Oh okay, just for the record, even the Canadian Beef Cattle Research Center agrees that it takes about 1910 gallons of fresh water to produce a pound of beef. Again, this is easy to search for, and if you do you will find many estimates in the ball park of 2000 gallons of water per pound of beef. So here's one link of many you can find:

How much water is used to make a pound of beef? | BeefResearch.ca

This is why we're done. You jump up and down and criticize me, when in fact your opinions are just plain wrong. In this case, you were off by a factor of 200,000. Did I get that math correct?

You said: 1 gallon for 100 pounds.
Reality is: 2000 gallons for 1 pound.

We can all see your expertise showing @Shad :confused:
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Oh okay, just for the record, even the Canadian Beef Cattle Research Center agrees that it takes about 1910 gallons of fresh water to produce a pound of beef. Again, this is easy to search for, and if you do you will find many estimates in the ball park of 2000 gallons of water per pound of beef. So here's one link of many you can find:

How much water is used to make a pound of beef? | BeefResearch.ca

This is why we're done. You jump up and down and criticize me, when in fact your opinions are just plain wrong. In this case, you were off by a factor of 200,000. Did I get that math correct?

You said: 1 gallon for 100 pounds.
Reality is: 2000 gallons for 1 pound.

We can all see your expertise showing @Shad :confused:
Water isn't an issue where I live.
There's neither cost nor limit to it.

We shouldn't have to live in a world so over-populated
& resource deprived that we cannot eat hamburgers.
I'll keep eating them. And so some people might have
to curb their reproduction rate.
 

Shad

Veteran Member
Oh okay, just for the record, even the Canadian Beef Cattle Research Center agrees that it takes about 1910 gallons of fresh water to produce a pound of beef. Again, this is easy to search for, and if you do you will find many estimates in the ball park of 2000 gallons of water per pound of beef. So here's one link of many you can find:

How much water is used to make a pound of beef? | BeefResearch.ca

I was talking about daily consumption.

This is why we're done. You jump up and down and criticize me, when in fact your opinions are just plain wrong. In this case, you were off by a factor of 200,000. Did I get that math correct?

I was talking about daily consumption.

You said: 1 gallon for 100 pounds.

Daily

Reality is: 2000 gallons for 1 pound.

Unknown total weight with an unknown butcher date.

We can all see your expertise showing @Shad :confused:

No I just didn't say daily.

Also you missed this

"If the beef animal itself only needs about 10 gallons of water per day to function, what accounts for the rest of the water (footprint) required for that 16 oz steak? Often in research terms the water measured in the total water footprint is broken into three colour categories. The footprint includes an estimate of how much surface and ground (blue) water is used to water cattle, make fertilizer, irrigate pastures and crops, process beef, etc. And then there is a measure of how much rain (green) water falls on pasture and feed crops, and finally how much water is needed to dilute runoff from feed crops, pastures and cattle operations (grey water). Adding these blue, green and grey numbers for cattle produced throughout the world produces a global “water footprint” for beef. It is worth noting that more than 95% of the water used in beef production is green water — it is going to rain and snow whether cattle are on pasture or not. And it is important to remember of all water used one way or another it all gets recycled."

So there is irrigation which is not required. We never used it once on our farm. Fertilizer we did but the water goes right back into the water table.

And you missed this

"Since the objective is to produce protein, couldn’t we just grow more pulse crops such as peas, beans, lentils and chickpeas and still meet protein requirements, use less water and benefit the environment? Let’s take a look at why that theory doesn’t hold true. "

And this

"Both annual crops and forages are important in Canadian agriculture. But, when people wonder why we just don’t produce more plant-based protein by growing more peas, beans and lentils, it’s not just a matter of swapping out every acre of pasture to produce a field of peas. It’s a matter of playing to your strengths — recognize the potential of the land for its best intended purpose."

and this

"Beef industry plays an important diverse role
The fact is, today’s beef cattle were not the first bovid species to set foot on what we now consider Canadian agricultural land. For thousands and thousands of years herds of as many as 30 million bison roamed across North America, including Canada, eating forages and depositing nutrients (manure) back into the soil and living in ecological harmony with thousands of plant and animal species.


Today, the five million head of beef cattle being raised on Canadian farms can’t duplicate that natural system, but as they are managed properly they do provide a valuable contribution to the environment just as the bison did. Beef cows and the pastures they use help to preserve Canada’s shrinking natural grassland ecosystems by providing plant and habitat biodiversity for migratory birds and endangered species, as well as habitat for a host of upland animal species. Properly managed grazing systems also benefit wetland preservation, while the diversity of plants all help to capture and store carbon from the air in the soil."

A point which refuted you claim about cattle damaging top-soil.

And this

"
Water cycles

Simply focusing on water use per pound of product ignores the water cycle. The water cycle is important – humans, wheat, corn, lentils, poultry, pork, eggs, milk, forages and beef production all use water, but they don’t use it up. They aren’t sponges that endlessly absorb water. Nearly all the water that people or cattle consume ends up back in the environment through manure, sweat, or water vapor.

We know that most of the water plants take up from the soil is transpired back into the air. Like city water, the water that beef processing facilities take out of the river at one end of the plant is treated and returns to the same river at the other end of the plant. New technologies to recycle and re-use water can reduce the amount of water needed for beef processing by 90 per cent."

Fact is your own source supports what I have been saying the whole time. Try to read more than 5 words then link something.... Hilarious. Ive never seen someone refute their overall points with their own sources in such a fashion. Great own goal....

Read your sources son.
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
Yes @Shad, all water eventually gets recycled back into the environment. But for all of your bloviating you keep sidestepping the issue of why our crucial aquifers are being depleted. The answer is that we're simply using fresh water much, much faster than nature can recycle it back to a clean state.
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
Water isn't an issue where I live.
There's neither cost nor limit to it.


We shouldn't have to live in a world so over-populated
& resource deprived that we cannot eat hamburgers.
I'll keep eating them. And so some people might have
to curb their reproduction rate.

If you live on planet earth, then you're wrong.
 

Shad

Veteran Member
Yes @Shad, all water eventually gets recycled back into the environment. But for all of your bloviating you keep sidestepping the issue of why our crucial aquifers are being depleted.

You mean humans as your source shows cattle are no threat? After all your own source supports not only my views but advocates for them. Now you are deflecting as you were caught not reading anything you cite.

No sidestepping. It shoot down your other points made in previous posts as well. You just didn't bother reading anything you linked beyond "gallons."
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
You mean humans as your source shows cattle are no threat? After all your own source supports not only my views but advocates for them. Now you are deflecting as you were caught not reading anything you cite.

No sidestepping. It shoot down your other points made in previous posts as well. You just didn't bother reading anything you linked beyond "gallons."

I have neither the time nor the crayons to explain this to you. At this point you're just sea-lioning. I was pretty sure this was the case several posts ago, but now I'm sure.

peace out.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
If you live on planet earth, then you're wrong.
No, we get much rain.
Wells don't run dry.
Water tables are stable.
So worrying about how much water cows drink is
like worrying about how much air they breath.

Arid areas would be another matter.
(Regarding water, not air.)
 

Shad

Veteran Member
I have neither the time nor the crayons to explain this to you. At this point you're just sea-lioning. I was pretty sure this was the case several posts ago, but now I'm sure.

Of course you do not. You do not even have the time to read your own sources which support my views and refuted your claims. Hilarious deflections. I do not expect you to know what effort is if you can not bother reading anything.

If I posted your source in crayon would it help you understand and read it? After all you seem like crayons. So do you want it in red?

Stop whining about being proven wrong.
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
Of course you do not. You do not even have the time to read your own sources which support my views and refuted your claims. Hilarious deflections. I do not expect you to know what effort is if you can not bother reading anything.

If I posted your source in crayon would it help you understand and read it? After all you seem like crayons. So you want it in red?

Stop whining about being proven wrong.

The Canadian beef dude's article was meant for folks like you, so that you could sleep better at night. So they start off with an actual fact and then do pages of obfuscatory song and dance to explain that crucial fact away. And you fell for it. It's similar to when Dow Chemicals tells us "without chemicals, life itself would be impossible". It's corporate marketing schtick and you drink it up, ha.

So tell me, why are our aquifers being depleted?
 
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