Patriotism - what does it mean?

[Alien826]

I'd say Welcome future fellow citizen! And then I'd expect you to take a certain pride in your adopted country.

Thanks for the welcome. It's proving to be a long process, with having to get doc for long ago divorces. I'm not too sure about the pride, but we'll see. I do intend to use my vote to support what I see as improvement.

Anyway, thanks for an interesting discussion. I think we've covered the subject as I intended in the OP.

 

[Alien826]

I do love England, warts and all. The other day though, I read an article by the journalist Simon Price, in which he referred to the Union Flag as the Butcher’s Apron. Which I thought was spot on, tbf. A lot of blood has been shed beneath that flag.

I could say that’s not the bit I love, but how to really separate rum, slavery opium and conquest, from cricket, afternoon tea, Monty Python and the Beatles? Dunno.

Hah, a fellow Brit with similar feelings.

When I was young, I kind of accepted the idea that Britain was the greatest and the Empire our gift to the benighted world. Are you familiar with the expression "Wogs begin at Calais"? Now I see that was totally inaccurate, though as you say there's still a nostalgic feeling related to your last four examples, and many more. I'd say acknowledge the sins of the past, regret them, and make what we can of what is left. I won't be returning to England unless some catastrophe occurs, as my beloved NHS seems to be on the edge of collapse and I need certain medical support that I'm getting reliably in the USA.

Hey, you've made me feel sad about the loss of an England that maybe never existed in the way I believed. I don't really have that feeling of "home" anywhere any more.

 

[PureX]

It is good and proper to feel an affinity for those that have shared in our successes and failures. To feel a kinship with those with whom we have a shared life experience related to our own. And as such to consider their well-being to be closely aligned wit our own. And I think some manifestations of 'patriotism' are of this kind.

Unfortunately, these feelings of 'tribal affiliation' can also have a dark side that tends to divide and demonize the "others" in an effort to unite and incite the "us".

 

[RestlessSoul]

Hah, a fellow Brit with similar feelings.

When I was young, I kind of accepted the idea that Britain was the greatest and the Empire our gift to the benighted world. Are you familiar with the expression "Wogs begin at Calais"? Now I see that was totally inaccurate, though as you say there's still a nostalgic feeling related to your last four examples, and many more. I'd say acknowledge the sins of the past, regret them, and make what we can of what is left. I won't be returning to England unless some catastrophe occurs, as my beloved NHS seems to be on the edge of collapse and I need certain medical support that I'm getting reliably in the USA.

Hey, you've made me feel sad about the loss of an England that maybe never existed in the way I believed. I don't really have that feeling of "home" anywhere any more.

Ha, well, isn't that what nostalgisa is? An ache for a past that never really existed?

Identity is never one single thing is it? More of a complex web, than one single identity. I'm definitely European, Brexit notwithstanding. And a Londoner, with Irish roots; and I'm certainly a little nostalgic for London when Irish (and West Indian) accents were everywhere, especially in pubs; which they're not so much anymore. But maybe that's just because I was younger then.

 

[Augustus]

I could say that’s not the bit I love, but how to really separate rum, slavery opium and conquest, from cricket, afternoon tea,

Cricket and afternoon tea are intrinsically connected to empire.

 

[RestlessSoul]

Cricket and afternoon tea are intrinsically connected to empire.

Tea certainly is. The British Empire was founded on it. Pretty sure cricket originated in England, but teaching lbw to gimlet eyed Pashtun tribesmen was a right of passage for empire builders, I guess.

 

[Balthazzar]

This has been inspired by the DNC which, though I support the Dems fully, drifted into a definition of patriotism that I don't like.

Before I begin, please stick to the main subject and not get into politics, though I understand that's difficult on this subject.

Definition #1: My country is the greatest country in the entire world, if not the universe. Anyone who says anything else is a traitor at the least. Any criticism of my country is totally unwarranted and should be punished in some way.

A quote from somewhere that I will reproduce from memory is "An irrational attachment to an area of the planet because I happen to have been born there".

Definition #2: My country leaves a lot to be desired and its history contains things we should be ashamed of, but the principles that were set out by our founders are good ones. I will work to make the country more on line with those principles so we can be truly proud of what it is rather than what it aspires to be.

Comments please.

#2 Resonates with more accuracy than the 1st.

That's life, right?

"Life leaves a lot to be desired and my past contains things I'm ashamed of, but the hopes set out for me by my parents were good ones, so I will work to fashion my life to be more in tune with those hopes, so I can be truly proud of what I am, rather than what I aspire to be."

 

[Alien826]

#2 Resonates with more accuracy than the 1st.

That's life, right?

"Life leaves a lot to be desired and my past contains things I'm ashamed of, but the hopes set out for me by my parents were good ones, so I will work to fashion my life to be more in tune with those hopes, so I can be truly proud of what I am, rather than what I aspire to be."

Yes, that would be nearer to my own somewhat atrophied version of patriotism.

On the other hand, if "with more accuracy" suggests that it doesn't exist, I'd disagree.

 

[Twilight Hue]

I do love England, warts and all. The other day though, I read an article by the journalist Simon Price, in which he referred to the Union Flag as the Butcher’s Apron. Which I thought was spot on, tbf. A lot of blood has been shed beneath that flag.

I could say that’s not the bit I love, but how to really separate rum, slavery opium and conquest, from cricket, afternoon tea, Monty Python and the Beatles? Dunno.

I can share the sentiment. Excellent post. I'm clearly a yank, though my better half is of British descent .

I call the good with the flaws a testimony for character , of one whom bears no shame nor pride for it's sum total. It's how one grows and adjusts that matters that makes the outlook unique in each set of eyes.