Paul - An Apostle?

[nPeace]

Was Paul really a true Christian, and apostle, as the scriptures say?
What do you believe, and does your belief agree with the scriptures?

 

[fantome profane]

Was Paul really a true Christian, and apostle, as the scriptures say?
What do you believe, and does your belief agree with the scriptures?

Two questions.

Which scripture specifically says that Paul was an apostle? And who wrote that scripture?

 

[nPeace]

Two questions.

Which scripture specifically says that Paul was an apostle? And who wrote that scripture?

Paul's letters - Romans, Corinthians, Galatians, Ephesians, Collosians, Timothy, Titus, and Hebrews - attributed to him, as the writer.
Peter also wrote of himself as an apostle, in letters attributed to him, as the writer.

PS
Specifically, the opening words of the letters.

 

[fantome profane]

Paul's letters - Romans, Corinthians, Galatians, Ephesians, Collosians, Timothy, Titus, and Hebrews - attributed to him, as the writer.

Right, Paul said Paul was an apostle.

I knew a guy who said he was a ninja. I don’t think he was a ninja.

 

[nPeace]

Right, Paul said Paul was an apostle.

I knew a guy who said he was a ninja. I don’t think he was a ninja.

So Peter was not an apostle, because he said he was.
Jesus was not the Messiah because he said he was.
Sennacherib was not king of Babylon Assyria because he said he was.
Isaac Newton was not a scientist, because he said he was.
I'm not a carpenter, because I say I am.

I marvel at the magnificent wisdom with which the unbelievers on RF reason.
I know a man who said he was an artist.
Turns out he was. I never saw him paint though, but all the work he presented, had his name on them, and people actually reccomended him... by name.

You were joking, right?

 

[fantome profane]

So Peter was not an apostle, because he said he was.
Jesus was not the Messiah because he said he was.
Sennacherib was not king of Babylon because he said he was.
Isaac Newton was not a scientist, because he said he was.
I'm not a carpenter, because I say I am.

I marvel at the magnificent wisdom with which the unbelievers on RF reason.
I know a man who said he was an artist.
Turns out he was. I never saw him paint though, but all the work he presented, had his name on them, and people actually reccomended him... by name.

You were joking, right?

Newton is not the only one who said Newton was a scientist. And you tell me many people describe your artist as being an artist.

 

[Nimos]

Was Paul really a true Christian, and apostle, as the scriptures say?
What do you believe, and does your belief agree with the scriptures?

I think he considered himself a Christian, but also saw a need or maybe wanted to modernize it, he wanted the message/religion to spread beyond Israel and to include more people. And I think he realized that it was not going to work unless some of the laws were changed, especially the circumcision one, he was not going to convince the heathens/gentiles of this and therefore needed an exception to the rule. So my guess is that in order to do this, the "covenant" that circumcision symbolize also needed to change, so it focused on Jesus more than God, and therefore you could be saved by simply accepting Jesus.

I also think this eventually started the split between Christianity and Judaism, as the law suddenly weren't all that important. Which Peter (I think) didn't agree with as that is not what the OT say either, so over time as we know the religions grew apart. But I think in the beginning before all this, they all considered themselves Jews, but some didn't agree with Jesus being the Messiah and some did.

(Obviously just me guessing )

 

[lukethethird]

Was Paul really a true Christian, and apostle, as the scriptures say?
What do you believe, and does your belief agree with the scriptures?

Paul was the only apostle to have written anything down. Paul's epistles are the oldest known Christian writings we have, they predate the gospels, which are works of fiction and possibly based at least in part on Paul's apostleship.

 

[Eyes to See]

Paul resurrected a woman. That is enough to show he had God's holy spirit and was a prophet. That he was a prophet there is no doubt either. He was given supernatural visions that we still don't fully understand. If you read through his letters they are full of things that are hard to understand; prophecies and secrets that are not fully revealed in scripture until he writes about them. Such as the hope of immortality, the calling and choosing to heavenly life, the cry of peace and security, the last trumpet blast and the raising to life of the anointed Christian congregation to heaven, and when it will happen. Comparing his writings with the rest of the holy canon of truth in God's word the Bible they are all in agreement, including obscure and hard to understand prophecies in Daniel about the holy ones reigning with the son of man, prophecies Jesus revealed to his close disciples and apostles, and the vision given to John at the end of his life in Revelation.

 

[epronovost]

So Peter was not an apostle, because he said he was.
Jesus was not the Messiah because he said he was.
Sennacherib was not king of Babylon Assyria because he said he was.
Isaac Newton was not a scientist, because he said he was.
I'm not a carpenter, because I say I am.

I think you just grasped an important lesson in life. You are not X because you claim you are. Isaac Newton was a scientist (of sort, at the time sciences were still in their infancy) because he produced scientific work, was part of a scientific society and was recognized as such by his peers and the population in general. You are not X simply because you claim you are it. It's a bit more complicated than that. You reasonably cannot claim to be the king of Assyria for instance. Even if Assyria still existed as a polity; you would not be its king, you would be just an insane man.

For Paul, that's a bit more complicated than Peter. Peter can easily claimed to be an Apostle for he was one of the pupil and followers of Jesus. Paul never met Jesus and never followed him during his lifetime. Paul claim to have had a vision of Jesus' ghost while on the road to Damascus during some sort of epileptic seizure. We all know he could very well lie; that's a very big possibility and, unlike Peter, he doesn't have the means to prove it by showing his knowledge of Jesus' personal life, or the backing of other apostles or people who simply witnessed him with Jesus and are still around. Plus, knowing a person made of flesh and blood vs meeting someone else's ghost in a mystic vision are two very different type of experiences. In the end, I don't think there is much reason to believe Paul was indeed an Apostle of Jesus since, by his own admission and that of other followers of Jesus, he never met him. You have to have great faith and a certain blind trust in that man to believe what he said. Was he an early Christian, a preacher and one of the founder of Christian theology? Absolutely no doubt about that. Was he an apostle? I would say probably not.

 

[Wildswanderer]

Was Paul really a true Christian, and apostle, as the scriptures say?
What do you believe, and does your belief agree with the scriptures?

Yes he was. He wrote over half the New testament for goodness sake.

 

[fantome profane]

Yes he was. He wrote over half the New testament for goodness sake.

That is also open to debate. There are six or seven epistles that are generally accepted to be authored by Paul, The rest are considered questionable to different degrees.

 

[metis]

The answer is clearly yes, as if he was not the Apostles certainly wouldn't even have given him the time of day, especially with his previous background and atrocities.

 

[lukethethird]

I think you just grasped an important lesson in life. You are not X because you claim you are. Isaac Newton was a scientist (of sort, at the time sciences were still in their infancy) because he produced scientific work, was part of a scientific society and was recognized as such by his peers and the population in general. You are not X simply because you claim you are it. It's a bit more complicated than that. You reasonably cannot claim to be the king of Assyria for instance. Even if Assyria still existed as a polity; you would not be its king, you would be just an insane man.

For Paul, that's a bit more complicated than Peter. Peter can easily claimed to be an Apostle for he was one of the pupil and followers of Jesus. Paul never met Jesus and never followed him during his lifetime. Paul claim to have had a vision of Jesus' ghost while on the road to Damascus during some sort of epileptic seizure. We all know he could very well lie; that's a very big possibility and, unlike Peter, he doesn't have the means to prove it by showing his knowledge of Jesus' personal life, or the backing of other apostles or people who simply witnessed him with Jesus and are still around. Plus, knowing a person made of flesh and blood vs meeting someone else's ghost in a mystic vision are two very different type of experiences. In the end, I don't think there is much reason to believe Paul was indeed an Apostle of Jesus since, by his own admission and that of other followers of Jesus, he never met him. You have to have great faith and a certain blind trust in that man to believe what he said.

The epistle writers predate the gospels and they in no way are aware of a Jesus from Nazareth, nor disciples of Jesus, believe it or not. Only the few post-gospel epistle writers are aware of a Jesus from Nazareth.

 

[nPeace]

Newton is not the only one who said Newton was a scientist. And you tell me many people describe your artist as being an artist.

So you believe Jesus was the Messiah, since others said he was?
A historian - identified as Luke - said that Paul was chosen and sent forth by Christ - apostle.
Who else besides Sennacherib said he was king of Assyria?
So you don't believe Sennacherib was really ever king of Assyria?
You don't believe I am a carpenter?
That's okay. We live in a dishonest world. I'm actually not a carpenter.

 

[nPeace]

Paul was the only apostle to have written anything down. Paul's epistles are the oldest known Christian writings we have, they predate the gospels, which are works of fiction and possibly based at least in part on Paul's apostleship.

I realize that Paul's writings are dated before the Gospels, by most modern scholars, but not by earlier scholars, and some modern scholars (who accept that Paul is not the only one who penned anything.).
Why do you believe the former opinion is correct?

 

[epronovost]

The epistle writers predate the gospels and they in no way are aware of a Jesus from Nazareth, nor disciples of Jesus, believe it or not. Only the few post-gospel epistle writers are aware of a Jesus from Nazareth.

That doesn't have any impact on the question of Paul being an Apostle. To be an apostle, you have to be a pupil of Jesus. If there were no story of a physical Jesus living in Judea in the early 1st century, preaching to the population and teaching his new theology to some dedicated followers then there is simply no such thing as an Apostle (outside of works of fiction of course) so Paul can't be one.

 

[metis]

To be an apostle, you have to be a pupil of Jesus.

That's more the definition of a "Disciple", whereas "Apostle" refers to the Twelve appointees of Jesus and the ones that replaced them.

 

[fantome profane]

So you believe Jesus was the Messiah, since others said he was?
A historian - identified as Luke - said that Paul was chosen and sent forth by Christ - apostle.
Who else besides Sennacherib said he was king of Assyria?
So you don't believe Sennacherib was really ever king of Assyria?
You don't believe I am a carpenter?
That's okay. We live in a dishonest world. I'm actually not a carpenter.

i have passed no judgment on any of these questions. Just pointing out historical facts. That is scriptural analysis. I am sorry if I have offended you.

Whoever wrote Luke and Acts clearly had a very positive opinion of Paul, But even he never used the word Apostle to describe him.

If someone asked me whether or not you are a carpenter I would simply tell them that you said you were.

 

[74x12]

Was Paul really a true Christian, and apostle, as the scriptures say?
What do you believe, and does your belief agree with the scriptures?

He was one of the finest Christians ever to walk the face of the earth. Yes my belief agrees with the scriptures.