Paul - An Apostle?

[74x12]

A true Christian has succeeded in continuously producing the fruits of the spirit: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, long suffering, meekly forgiving, faithfulness etc. They have obtained a crown of righteousness worth more than all other things. They are a transformed being, once dead, now alive.

You wouldn't know about the fruits of the Spirit as in Galatians 5:22-23 without Paul. He also spoke of a crown of righteousness. (2 Tim 4:8) I think we can safely admit he was the real deal.

 

[soulsurvivor]

Was Paul really a true Christian, and apostle, as the scriptures say?
What do you believe, and does your belief agree with the scriptures?

There are can only be 12 apostles just like the signs of the zodiac. If Paul was an apostle, you need to kick one of the original ones out. There can not be 13 apostles.

 

[DNB]

Paul's letters - Romans, Corinthians, Galatians, Ephesians, Collosians, Timothy, Titus, and Hebrews - attributed to him, as the writer.
Peter also wrote of himself as an apostle, in letters attributed to him, as the writer.

PS
Specifically, the opening words of the letters.

Sorry to digress, but no reputable scholar believes that Paul wrote Hebrews.

 

[DNB]

Right, Paul said Paul was an apostle.

I knew a guy who said he was a ninja. I don’t think he was a ninja.

The question was: according to Scripture. And, what is one's take on it. He didn't make the assertion himself, necessarily.

 

[fantome profane]

The question was: according to Scripture. And, what is one's take on it. He didn't make the assertion himself, necessarily.

He didn’t? Who did?

 

[Twilight Hue]

You wouldn't know about the fruits of the Spirit as in Galatians 5:22-23 without Paul. He also spoke of a crown of righteousness. (2 Tim 4:8) I think we can safely admit he was the real deal.

And a contradiction to the book of Mark's warning for people to not believe anyone who says christ is here or there.

 

[DNB]

Was Paul really a true Christian, and apostle, as the scriptures say?
What do you believe, and does your belief agree with the scriptures?

Paul was one of, if not, the greatest Apostle. He was directly taught by Christ through revelation, and paid no regard to those who were considered leaders in the Church - he knew that he was appointed by Christ himself.
Paul's wisdom, authority, insights, devotion, and love for the Church, exemplifies all Christian attributes and ideals. He was the quintessential Christian, possibly equaled by the twelve, but not surpassed, I would imagine. No one laboured and suffered persecution as him, and remained persistent even unto death. He was fearless and wise, determined and loving.
Outside of Christ, there was not a greater man in the New Testament then Paul, at least what the Scriptures reveal.

 

[DNB]

He didn’t? Who did?

The one that you were responding to.

 

[lukethethird]

Paul is not the writer of Luke.
It was Luke who said that Paul "met" Jesus, and received a commission from him.
In fact, Luke is the one who provided the information on how the apostles were skeptical about Paul's conversion.
He is the same historian that informed us of Peter's - an apostle - activity, after Jesus' ascension,, as well as the formation, and progress of the Christian congregation.

What does Paul say about his own commission and what does Paul say about Peter's commission?

 

[lukethethird]

I realize that Paul's writings are dated before the Gospels, by most modern scholars, but not by earlier scholars, and some modern scholars (who accept that Paul is not the only one who penned anything.).
Why do you believe the former opinion is correct?

Because it appears that the author of the first gospel, gMark, had the writings of Paul's before him when he wrote his story.

 

[fantome profane]

The one that you were responding to.

I am confused. I think you might be confused as well, but I know I am.

 

[lukethethird]

That doesn't have any impact on the question of Paul being an Apostle. To be an apostle, you have to be a pupil of Jesus.

That would be true of a disciple but not an apostle.

If there were no story of a physical Jesus living in Judea in the early 1st century, preaching to the population and teaching his new theology to some dedicated followers then there is simply no such thing as an Apostle (outside of works of fiction of course) so Paul can't be one.

And yet, Paul was an apostle and had died a decade or so before the gospel story was written and before it was known by anyone.

In II Galatians Paul offered his sources, they were visions as in revelations of a risen Christ that he promised would come on a cloud of glory, and also from his ancient scriptures (the OT), that told him about Jesus Christ. He claims he learned nothing about Jesus from any man.

There was several forms of Christianity before Proto-orthodox Christianity - Wikipedia dominated by the end of the third century.

 

[74x12]

And a contradiction to the book of Mark's warning for people to not believe anyone who says christ is here or there.

He saw a bright light and heard a voice. It was Jesus talking to him. The people with him only saw the light but did not hear the voice. Besides the light was in the sky. So Paul himself never claimed Jesus returned to earth anywhere in particular. It's not a contradiction.

To contradict Mark 13:21 you would need to do more than claim you saw a vision of Jesus Christ. You would have to be telling people that they have to go to a certain place in order to meet Jesus.

In conclusion, Paul never said Christ was "here or there" only that he encountered Christ and Christ spoke to him out of the sky. (Acts 26:13) So that's completely different.

Paul clearly teaches that Christ was not yet come. He, like Jesus in the book of Mark warns against those who would deceive you about Christ's return (before his actual return) in 2 Thessalonians 2:2-8.

"... Let no man deceive you by any means ..."

 

[YoursTrue]

A true Christian has succeeded in continuously producing the fruits of the spirit: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, long suffering, meekly forgiving, faithfulness etc. They have obtained a crown of righteousness worth more than all other things. They are a transformed being, once dead, now alive.

Paul was not lying when he wrote the following at 2 Timothy chapter 1: "Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by God’s will according to the promise of the life that is through Christ Jesus," That chapter as well as others written by Paul, is very encouraging, and shows that Paul was truly an apostle blessed by God and Jesus.

 

[DNB]

I am confused. I think you might be confused as well, but I know I am.

I was speaking on his behalf, attempt to clarify what he meant, as I believe that you misconstrued it.

 

[blü 2]

Was Paul really a true Christian, and apostle, as the scriptures say?
What do you believe, and does your belief agree with the scriptures?

It depends what you mean by 'Christian'.

I was told a Christian is anyone who accepts Christ as his savior.

By that definition, Paul looks like a true enough example of a Christian.

As for being an apostle, he invented a special definition for himself, so he could claim to be one.

His view is easy to dispute ─ Sales Manager might be a better term. Do you accept he was an apostle?

 

[Twilight Hue]

He saw a bright light and heard a voice. It was Jesus talking to him. The people with him only saw the light but did not hear the voice. Besides the light was in the sky. So Paul himself never claimed Jesus returned to earth anywhere in particular. It's not a contradiction.

To contradict Mark 13:21 you would need to do more than claim you saw a vision of Jesus Christ. You would have to be telling people that they have to go to a certain place in order to meet Jesus.

In conclusion, Paul never said Christ was "here or there" only that he encountered Christ and Christ spoke to him out of the sky. (Acts 26:13) So that's completely different.

Paul clearly teaches that Christ was not yet come. He, like Jesus in the book of Mark warns against those who would deceive you about Christ's return (before his actual return) in 2 Thessalonians 2:2-8.

"... Let no man deceive you by any means ..."

It was already pointed to a location. The road to Damascus. Also Paul claimed it was Jesus outright and believed it, disregarding the warning not to believe.

Nothing was ever mentioned christ will return to meet an individual either.

It's definitely a contradiction and a pretty straightforward one as well.

 

[oldbadger]

Was Paul really a true Christian, and apostle, as the scriptures say?
What do you believe, and does your belief agree with the scriptures?

Yes, I'm sure that Paul was a true Christian but Jesus was nothing to do with Paul's 'Christianity'.

Jesus didn't even know the word 'Christian', didn't promote Paul's stuff, did not have the same campaign, and Jesus wouldn't have had anything to do with the story that Apostle John spun, albeit from some accounts that were true, he just didn't put these accounts in the right place, he expanded the time-length of Jesus's mission, he left out Jesus's actions that he didn't think were good enough, he placed in actions that just weren't true, he turned Jesus's true enemy, the Priesthood, in to the Jewish people that Jesus had loved, he pretended that he was the most loved.........
Paul and John? Can you guess what I think of them?

 

[loverofhumanity]

Was Paul really a true Christian, and apostle, as the scriptures say?
What do you believe, and does your belief agree with the scriptures?

I hope I’m allowed in this forum. Otherwise the moderator please delete this post.

We Baha’is consider our scripture as Divinely guided and so infallible and from what it says about Paul, yes I believe he was an Apostle.


“One's conduct must be like the conduct of Paul, and one's faith similar to that of Peter. ”

Selections from the Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá

So highly is Paul regarded in the Baha’i Faith that we are told our conduct must be like him. Definitely an Apostle in my view if he is that highly regarded.

 

[Colt]

Was Paul really a true Christian, and apostle, as the scriptures say?
What do you believe, and does your belief agree with the scriptures?

Anyone who believes in Christ is a Christ-ian. Paul was the first great charismatic leader in the post ascension Jesus movement who's personal beliefs tremendously influenced Christianity which is largely a religion about Jesus that departed from the religion of Jesus. Almost all of the NT is Jesus according to the influence of Paul's preaching in the recollection of those who wrote the Gospels.

Jesus lived, taught and preached the Gospel of the Kingdom of Heaven for 3+ years before being apprehended by the Jewish religious authorities. After Jesus left new theories arose and a new Gospel about the cross; Christ and him crucified for the sins of the world. Paul, who never knew Jesus during his life, taught his own sincere speculative Gospel.

Paul was one of many believers, but his stature was tremendously elevated by his devotees after his death. Paul's words became the Word of God, equal to Jesus. Even his letters of correspondence were canonized as scripture.