Paul - An Apostle?

[metis]

Sorry to digress, but no reputable scholar believes that Paul wrote Hebrews.

Exactly, which is also why the Church had a difficult time deciding if the book should even be included in the canon because of the question of authorship.

 

[metis]

I tend to think that Paul was likely the first Christian "theologian" as he tried to explain, correctly or not, many of the "nuts & bolts" about the faith, plus applications of the faith.

 

[lukethethird]

It depends what you mean by 'Christian'.

I was told a Christian is anyone who accepts Christ as his savior.

By that definition, Paul looks like a true enough example of a Christian.

As for being an apostle, he invented a special definition for himself, so he could claim to be one.

His view is easy to dispute ─ Sales Manager might be a better term. Do you accept he was an apostle?

The usage of the term apostle is consistant throughout the NT, an apostle is not necessarily a disciple.

Paul was the only apostle from the first century to have written anyting down so we can learn a thing or two about first century apostles from him. For example, he claimed that he was commissioned by God to be an apostle to the uncircumcised and claimed that Peter was also commissioned by God to be an apostle, but to the circumcised. An apostle is "one who is sent off" to preach the good news.

 

[74x12]

It was already pointed to a location. The road to Damascus. Also Paul claimed it was Jesus outright and believed it, disregarding the warning not to believe.

Nothing was ever mentioned christ will return to meet an individual either.

It's definitely a contradiction and a pretty straightforward one as well.

Why does it have to be mentioned? Either it contradicts Mark or it doesn't. It clearly doesn't contradict the book of Mark which speaks of people claiming Christ returned to earth in physical form. Like Jesus came back, he's in this cave; come see it. There are many people who pretend to be Jesus returned and start cults. It happens constantly. So that's what Mark is warning people about. No one should believe these con artists.

Anything else such as seeing Christ in the sky like Paul did is not at all a contradiction. Even Stephen saw Christ in the sky waiting for him when he was stoned. (Acts 7:56)

As for Paul believing it. You would too. He was blind for 3 days until God sent this guy Ananias to pray for him and heal his eyes and for him to receive the holy Spirit. Not only did he see a light and have Jesus talk to him out of the sky. But he was just healed from blindness! A significant miracle all by itself. I think at that point most people would have no choice but to believe.

 

[YoursTrue]

It was already pointed to a location. The road to Damascus. Also Paul claimed it was Jesus outright and believed it, disregarding the warning not to believe.

Nothing was ever mentioned christ will return to meet an individual either.

It's definitely a contradiction and a pretty straightforward one as well.

Many people do not understand about the return of Christ.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Many people do not understand about the return of Christ.

That's true.

The mythologies of Christ are indeed open to varying interpretation as its not clearly spelled out by the authors.

 

[blü 2]

The usage of the term apostle is consistant throughout the NT, an apostle is not necessarily a disciple.

Paul was the only apostle from the first century to have written anyting down so we can learn a thing or two about first century apostles from him. For example, he claimed that he was commissioned by God to be an apostle to the uncircumcised and claimed that Peter was also commissioned by God to be an apostle, but to the circumcised. An apostle is "one who is sent off" to preach the good news.

I'm dubious about an 'apostle' who never met a living Jesus (given there was one to meet) but instead out loud and proud derived his version of Jesus from his own mental processes (Galatians 1:12).

But 'Sales Manager' fits the apparent facts.

 

[DNB]

Exactly, which is also why the Church had a difficult time deciding if the book should even be included in the canon because of the question of authorship.

Exactly, which is why clearly the church did not act under the auspices of God's spirit when deciding the canon, ...or doctrine, otherwise there would be no need for deliberation..

 

[101G]

It was already pointed to a location. The road to Damascus. Also Paul claimed it was Jesus outright and believed it, disregarding the warning not to believe.

Nothing was ever mentioned christ will return to meet an individual either.

It's definitely a contradiction and a pretty straightforward one as well.

We must disagree with your statement, did he not appear to Ananias in a Vision? just as Moses and Elijah appeared on the Mountain top of transfiguration? a vision can be just as real as if one was on the earth in their body. did not Ananias witness that it was the Lord Jesus, God almighty who chose Paul?
and did not the Lord Jesus appear to many after his resurrection? but after his ascension, the Lord Jesus only now is in manifestation which happen after his arrival on the day of Pentecost.

so it was the Lord Jesus who chose Paul and sent him forth.
PICJAG, 101G.

 

[lukethethird]

I'm dubious about an 'apostle' who never met a living Jesus (given there was one to meet) but instead out loud and proud derived his version of Jesus from his own mental processes (Galatians 1:12).

But 'Sales Manager' fits the apparent facts.

• An apostle is not the same as a disciple, an apostle is "one who is sent off", a messenger, it matters not where his message comes from. Most of Paul's good news came directly from God, or so he claimed. In the gospels Jesus rounded up 70 apostles to go out and spread his news.
• There was all kinds of apostles, when other apostles were moving in on Paul's action, Paul warned his congregations about apostles that represent the wrong Christ.
• 
  
• Paul claimed that his commission to be an apostle came from God, and he stated that Peter's commission came from God as well. So, one might ask, where is the Jesus in all of this?

 

[101G]

• An apostle is not the same as a disciple, an apostle is "one who is sent off", a messenger, it matters not where his message comes from. Most of Paul's good news came directly from God, or so he claimed. In the gospels Jesus rounded up 70 apostles to go out and spread his news.
• There was all kinds of apostles, when other apostles were moving in on Paul's action, Paul warned his congregations about apostles that represent the wrong Christ.
• 
  
• Paul claimed that his commission to be an apostle came from God, and he stated that Peter's commission came from God as well. So, one might ask, where is the Jesus in all of this?

Jesus is God in all of this. "THE GOD OF OUR FATHERS", did you not read in Acts 22:12 when the apostle recounted the meeting on the road to Damascus. "And one Ananias, a devout man according to the law, having a good report of all the Jews which dwelt there," Acts 22:13 "Came unto me, and stood, and said unto me, Brother Saul, receive thy sight. And the same hour I looked up upon him." Acts 22:14 "And he said, The God of our fathers hath chosen thee, that thou shouldest know his will, and see that Just One, and shouldest hear the voice of his mouth."
"THE GOD OF OUR FATHERS IS JESUS".
PICJAG, 101G.

 

[lukethethird]

We must disagree with your statement, did he not appear to Ananias in a Vision? just as Moses and Elijah appeared on the Mountain top of transfiguration? a vision can be just as real as if one was on the earth in their body. did not Ananias witness that it was the Lord Jesus, God almighty who chose Paul?
and did not the Lord Jesus appear to many after his resurrection? but after his ascension, the Lord Jesus only now is in manifestation which happen after his arrival on the day of Pentecost.

so it was the Lord Jesus who chose Paul and sent him forth.
PICJAG, 101G.

Paul claimed that his, and Peter's apostleship, came from God:

Galatians 2 For God, who was at work in Peter as an apostle to the circumcised, was also at work in me as an apostle to the Gentiles.

 

[101G]

Paul claimed that his, and Peter's apostleship, came from God:

Galatians 2 For God, who was at work in Peter as an apostle to the circumcised, was also at work in me as an apostle to the Gentiles.

yes, who is the Lord JESUS, now in Glorified flesh..
PICJAG, 101G.

 

[lukethethird]

Jesus is God in all of this. "THE GOD OF OUR FATHERS", did you not read in Acts 22:12 when the apostle recounted the meeting on the road to Damascus. "And one Ananias, a devout man according to the law, having a good report of all the Jews which dwelt there," Acts 22:13 "Came unto me, and stood, and said unto me, Brother Saul, receive thy sight. And the same hour I looked up upon him." Acts 22:14 "And he said, The God of our fathers hath chosen thee, that thou shouldest know his will, and see that Just One, and shouldest hear the voice of his mouth."
"THE GOD OF OUR FATHERS IS JESUS".
PICJAG, 101G.

Acts is second century church propaganda, Paul never said anything about a conversion.

 

[YoursTrue]

That's true.

The mythologies of Christ are indeed open to varying interpretation as its not clearly spelled out by the authors.

Seeing is believing. Depending on what's happening, and when it happens, just as Jesus spoke of sheep and goats (open to interpretation), prophecy is also spoken of in sometimes symbolic terms.

 

[lukethethird]

Exactly, which is also why the Church had a difficult time deciding if the book should even be included in the canon because of the question of authorship.

Regardless of who wrote it, it is quite revealing as to what early Christians believed.

 

[lukethethird]

Seeing is believing. Depending on what's happening, and when it happens, just as Jesus spoke of sheep and goats (open to interpretation), prophecy is also spoken of in sometimes symbolic terms.

Religious texts are like that, they sound oh so mysterious, believers are suckers for that.

 

[101G]

Acts is second century church propaganda, Paul never said anything about a conversion.

there is a third account of this same event, in which Pauls tells of his conversion. and just as he, the apostle declared it before the Jews in Acts chapter 22. now before king Agrippa. scripture, Acts 26:12 "Whereupon as I went to Damascus with authority and commission from the chief priests," Acts 26:13 "At midday, O king, I saw in the way a light from heaven, above the brightness of the sun, shining round about me and them which journeyed with me." Acts 26:14 "And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks." Acts 26:15 "And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest." Acts 26:16 "But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee;"
here the word “make” is the same word for choose in act 22, when Ananias said, Acts 22:14 "And he said, The God of our fathers hath chosen thee, that thou shouldest know his will, and see that Just One, and shouldest hear the voice of his mouth."
here the word “Chosen” is the same word for Make in Acts 26:16, it is the Greek word, G4400 προχειρίζομαι procheirizomai (pro-chei-riy'-zo-mai) v.
1. to handle for oneself in advance.
2. (figuratively) to purpose.
[middle voice from G4253 and a derivative of G5495]
KJV: choose, make
Root(s): G4253, G5495

my source for this definition is the Mickelson's Enhanced Strong's Dictionaries of the Greek and Hebrew Testaments,
the KJV can translate the word as choose, or make. and this word is only found in both of these two scriptures. so the GOD OF OUR FATHERS IS … JESUS.
PICJAG, 101G.

 

[101G]

Religious texts are like that, they sound oh so mysterious, believers are suckers for that.

there is nothing mysterious about the scriptures, it's only our lack of A. KNOWLEDGE, and B. UNDERSTANDING of them. the bible is clear, 2 Timothy 2:15 "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."
PICJAG, 101G.

 

[YoursTrue]

Jesus is God in all of this. "THE GOD OF OUR FATHERS", did you not read in Acts 22:12 when the apostle recounted the meeting on the road to Damascus. "And one Ananias, a devout man according to the law, having a good report of all the Jews which dwelt there," Acts 22:13 "Came unto me, and stood, and said unto me, Brother Saul, receive thy sight. And the same hour I looked up upon him." Acts 22:14 "And he said, The God of our fathers hath chosen thee, that thou shouldest know his will, and see that Just One, and shouldest hear the voice of his mouth."
"THE GOD OF OUR FATHERS IS JESUS".
PICJAG, 101G.

Jesus said he has a God. John 20:17 Jesus told Mary Magdalene he has a God. "Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God."