Apology accepted.
Would you say that a scholar is reputable when they believe certain things?
I ask because some of those scholars who object to what other reputable scholars agree on, are considered reputable.
What makes a scholar reputable, and why is his opinion more important than the other fellow?
In other words, why does that matter, or why is it valid?
The same question applies to the way in which New Testament scholars interpret the evidence for the historical reliability of the Gospels−most notably the question of the resurrection of Jesus. Consider these two polar opposite quotes, both by scholars distinguished in their field:
A reputable scholar is one who is esteemed by his peers, despite the opposition of views. One who is neither radical or unconventional in both his exegesis and conclusions.
Ultimately, one who has a reputation for being disciplined, restrained and sound in their methodologies, and sober and insightful in their establishment of doctrines and statements of faith. Have not been scandalized, nor unduly slandered.
Their is a consensus in scholarly circles of who the author of Hebrews is - no one identifiable from either internal or external evidence.
The reason that we can define reputable in this particular context i.e. textual criticism, because it is largely a science, and not a subjective art. Doctrinal exegesis, for example, is a entirely different assessment - only wisdom can discern the truth in many, many cases.
Paul
(Romans 11:13) . . .I am an apostle to the nations. . .
(Romans 15:15, 16) . . .undeserved kindness given to me from God for me to be a public servant of Christ Jesus to the nations. I am engaging in the holy work of the good news of God, so that these nations might be an acceptable offering, sanctified with holy spirit. . .
(Galatians 2:7, 8) . . .they saw that I had been entrusted with the good news for those who are uncircumcised, just as Peter had been for those who are circumcised— for the one who empowered Peter for an apostleship to those who are circumcised also empowered me for those who are of the nations. . .
(Galatians 2:11-14) 11 However, when Cephas came to Antioch, I resisted him face-to-face, because he was clearly in the wrong. 12For before certain men from James arrived, he used to eat with people of the nations; but when they arrived, he stopped doing this and separated himself, fearing those of the circumcised class. 13The rest of the Jews also joined him in putting on this pretense, so that even Barnabas was led along with them in their pretense. 14But when I saw that they were not walking in step with the truth of the good news, I said to Cephas before them all: “If you, though you are a Jew, live as the nations do and not as Jews do, how can you compel people of the nations to live according to Jewish practice?”
Peter's own words... You well know how unlawful it is for a Jew to associate with or approach a man of another race, and yet God has shown me that I should call no man defiled or unclean. (Acts 10:28) Now I truly understand that God is not partial, but in every nation the man who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him. He sent out the word to the sons of Israel to declare to them the good news of peace through Jesus Christ - this one is Lord of all. (Acts 10:34-36)
To him all the prophets bear witness, that everyone putting faith in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.. . . (Acts 10:43)
(Acts 10:44-48) 44 While Peter was still speaking about these matters, the holy spirit came upon all those hearing the word. 45 And the circumcised believers who had come with Peter were amazed, because the free gift of the holy spirit was being poured out also on people of the nations. 46 For they heard them speaking in foreign languages and magnifying God. Then Peter responded: 47“Can anyone deny water to prevent these from being baptized who have received the holy spirit just as we have?”48 With that he commanded them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they requested him to stay for some days.
(Acts 11:1-4) 1 Now the apostles and the brothers who were in Judea heard that people of the nations had also accepted the word of God. 2So when Peter came up to Jerusalem, the supporters of circumcision began to criticize him, 3 saying: “You went into the house of men who were not circumcised and ate with them.” 4 At this Peter went on to explain the matter in detail to them. . .
Acts 11:18 When they heard these things, they stopped objecting, and they glorified God, saying: “So, then, God has also granted to people of the nations repentance leading to life.”
I'll stop there, lest I write a book.
However, this understanding is truly great. Why?
Not only does it show the complete harmony of scripture, from Genesis to Revelation, but it shows the superlative wisdom of the grand creator - the one who authored the Bible, confirming 2 Timothy 3:16 - "All scripture is inspired of God..."
In summary ...
God - the God of order progressively reveals and works out his purpose to a completion. Genesis 3:15 ; Genesis 22:18
(Matthew 15:24) [Jesus] answered: “I was not sent to anyone except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”
(Matthew 10:5, 6) 5 These 12 Jesus sent out, giving them these instructions: “Do not go off into the road of the nations, and do not enter any Samaritan city; 6but instead, go continually to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
(Ephesians 3:1-9) ...by way of a revelation the sacred secret was made known to me... you can realize my comprehension of the sacred secret of the Christ. [which] has now been revealed to [Christ's] holy apostles and prophets by spirit... that people of the nations should, in union with Christ Jesus and through the good news, be joint heirs and fellow members of the body and partakers with us of the promise... I became a minister of this according to the free gift of God’s undeserved kindness that was given me through the operation of his power.
(2 Timothy 4:17) But the Lord stood near me and infused power into me, so that through me the preaching might be fully accomplished and all the nations might hear it; and I was rescued from the lion’s mouth. . .
God's purpose is progressing to its completion. Galatians 3 ; Ephesians 1:3-15
This is why the SDA do not understand the scriptures. They fail to see the wisdom of God in this sacred secret, and they hold on to the shadow, which have been left behind, by the reality. See Galatians 3:10-14 ; Ephesians 2:11-22
It appears to many people that there is no God, and it appears to others, there is.
.................................
I hope you get my point.
Unless you point out those appearances, the other person can't see them, so there are merely appearances... to that person.
In other words, it's much better to present those appearance to the other person. What are they? For example... ?
I think you kinda misunderstood the dialogue between @fantome profane and myself, but no worries... these things do happen.
Or maybe I am the one who misunderstands you?
You were told.
That surprises me, because here you are willing to go by what you are told, without getting to know for yourself.
Yet when you are told other things... for example, that the Bible does not say the earth is flat, you don't accept that.
Seems clear to me, Atheist accept what they want to hear, rather than what's actually known to be true.
A Christian is a follower of Christ, and his teachings.
I encourage you to research it. Don't just accept what I say.
People say a Christian is one who accepts Christ as their savior, but that begs the question, "What does it mean to accept Christ as savior?
I unlike you have read what the bible says about the earth being flat, and many times quoted it to you.
You on your side ─
(a) have never cited bible verses that the earth is spherical, that the solar system gets its name from being heliocentric, that the authors of the bible had the least comprehension of modern cosmology; and
(b) never explained why the bible's cosmology should be that of the 21st century and not of the period in which it was written.
Why don't you do so now? Aren't Christians ─ ordinary Christians, not Christian apologists of course ─ supposed to be frank and honest?
It was already pointed to a location. The road to Damascus. Also Paul claimed it was Jesus outright and believed it, disregarding the warning not to believe.
I don't recall Paul saying Jesus was on the road to Damascus.
I don't recall him pointing out the Lord to anyone.
(Acts 9:3, 4) 3 Now as he was traveling and getting near Damascus, suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him, 4 and he fell to the ground and heard a voice say to him: “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?”
So no. Paul did not say "Lo. There he is." Or. "Here he is."
Paul did not contradict Mark... but you are contradicting scripture.
Do you mean 'nothing was ever mentioned' in scripture? Or 'nothing was ever mentioned' before Paul?
In either case, that is not true.
(John 14:3) . . .I will come again and will receive you home to myself. . .
(1 Thessalonians 4:16, 17) 16 because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first. 17 Afterward we the living who are surviving will, together with them, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we will always be with the Lord.
To you it is, but you have not shown that there is.
You only make that assertion.
It's not expected that you will be able to do much more than that, since you are contradicting what's actually in scripture.
I don't recall Paul saying Jesus was on the road to Damascus.
I don't recall him pointing out the Lord to anyone.
(Acts 9:3, 4) 3 Now as he was traveling and getting near Damascus, suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him, 4 and he fell to the ground and heard a voice say to him: “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?”
So no. Paul did not say "Lo. There he is." Or. "Here he is."
Paul did not contradict Mark... but you are contradicting scripture.
Anyone who believes in Christ is a Christ-ian. Paul was the first great charismatic leader in the post ascension Jesus movement who's personal beliefs tremendously influenced Christianity which is largely a religion about Jesus that departed from the religion of Jesus. Almost all of the NT is Jesus according to the influence of Paul's preaching in the recollection of those who wrote the Gospels.
Jesus lived, taught and preached the Gospel of the Kingdom of Heaven for 3+ years before being apprehended by the Jewish religious authorities. After Jesus left new theories arose and a new Gospel about the cross; Christ and him crucified for the sins of the world. Paul, who never knew Jesus during his life, taught his own sincere speculative Gospel.
Paul was one of many believers, but his stature was tremendously elevated by his devotees after his death. Paul's words became the Word of God, equal to Jesus. Even his letters of correspondence were canonized as scripture.
This is not what is seen in scripture, by sincere avid Bible students.
Paul mentioned the kingdom more than a dozen times, and explained it in much detail.
Jesus was not finished with his people, because he was now in heaven.
He had much work for them, in order to complete the work he started.
So starting at Pentecost 33 A.D., he started the Christian congregation - the body of which he is head, and he selected Paul for an assignment, which was in harmony with his work.
Noteworthy is the fact that the angels too, are involved in that work.
Revelation 14:6 I saw another angel flying in midheaven, and he had everlasting good news to declare to those who dwell on the earth, to every nation and tribe and tongue and people.
For more details, see Post #102
Why should people believe this, or you? Acts was writen in the first century. Why should people believe that?
Acts of Apostles When and Where Written. The book covers a period of approximately 28 years, from Jesus’ ascension in 33 C.E. to the end of the second year of Paul’s imprisonment in Rome about 61 C.E. During this period four Roman emperors ruled in succession: Tiberius, Caligula, Claudius, and Nero. Since it relates events through the second year of Paul’s imprisonment in Rome, it could not have been completed earlier. Had the account been written later, it is reasonable to expect that Luke would have provided more information about Paul; if written after the year 64 C.E., mention surely would have been made of Nero’s violent persecution that began then; and if written after 70 C.E., as some contend, we would expect to find Jerusalem’s destruction recorded.
The writer Luke accompanied Paul much of the time during his travels, including the perilous voyage to Rome, which is apparent from his use of the first-person plural pronouns “we,” “our,” and “us” in Acts 16:10-17; 20:5-15; 21:1-18; 27:1-37; 28:1-16. Paul, in his letters written from Rome, mentions that Luke was also there. (Collosians 4:14; Philemon 24) It was, therefore, in Rome that the writing of the book of Acts was completed.
Archaeology and Luke
The use by Jesus of a denarius coin bearing the head of Tiberius Caesar (Mark 12:15-17) is confirmed by the finding of a silver denarius coin bearing the head of Tiberius and put in circulation about the year 15 C.E. (PICTURE, Vol. 2, p. 544) (Compare Luke 3:1, 2.) The fact that Pontius Pilate was then Roman governor of Judea is also demonstrated by a stone slab found at Caesarea bearing the Latin names Pontius Pilatus and Tiberieum. - See PILATE; PICTURE, Vol. 2, p. 741.
The Acts of Apostles, which gives clear evidence of having been written by Luke, contains numerous references to cities and their provinces and to officials of different types and with varying titles, holding office at a particular time—a presentation fraught with possibility of error on the part of the writer. (Note also Luke 3:1, 2.) Yet the archaeological evidence produced demonstrates to a remarkable degree Luke’s accuracy. Thus, at Acts 14:1-6, Luke places Lystra and Derbe within the territory of Lycaonia but implies that Iconium was in another territory. Roman writers, including Cicero, referred to Iconium as being in Lycaonia. However, a monument discovered in 1910 shows that Iconium was considered to be indeed a city of Phrygia rather than of Lycaonia.
Similarly, an inscription discovered at Delphi confirms that Gallio was proconsul of Achaia, likely in 51-52 C.E. (Acts 18:12) Some 19 inscriptions dating from the second century B.C.E. to the third century C.E. confirm the correctness of Luke’s use of the title city rulers (singular, po·li·tarʹkhes) as applying to the officials of Thessalonica (Acts 17:6, 8), five of these inscriptions referring specifically to that city.
Jesus said he was going to HIS Father and God as well as Mary Magdalene's father and God. That means that Jesus was not God since he said he was going to HIS God. AND Mary Magdalene's God. One God. Mary's God and Jesus' God. Jesus has a God. It's the same God he spoke to Mary about.
John 20:17. Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.
A true 'Xian'? Yes, but that does NOT necessarily mean a true disciple of Yeshua.
'Agree with the scriptures'? What scriptures? I simply don't think anything authored
or even inspired by Paul IS 'scriptures'. I'm strictly Mathew-Only with Others per review,
But then, the 'victors' write the 'history', right?
I can't picture Mark willy nilly saying," Sure Paul I believe you, even when I know I'm told not to believe anyone who says they came across Christ. So in complete disregard of that warning your now an apostle, so welcome to our club because it was so convincing in spite of being told not to believe you"!
(Mark 13:21-23) 21 “Then, too, if anyone says to you, ‘See! Here is the Christ,’ or, ‘See! There he is,’ do not believe it. 22 For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will perform signs and wonders to lead astray, if possible, the chosen ones. 23 You, then, watch out. I have told you all things beforehand.
Is that what you read also?
If so, that's great! There you see Jesus is warning them about going after false Christs - people who would claim to be the Messiah.
Jesus was not deterring his followers from recognizing his presence.
We know this from numerous scriptures, writen after Jesus left the earth.
(John 20:18) . . .Mary Magdalene came and brought the news to the disciples: “I have seen the Lord!” And she told them what he had said to her.
(John 20:25) . . .So the other disciples were telling him: “We have seen the Lord!” But he said to them: “Unless I see in his hands the print of the nails and stick my finger into the print of the nails and stick my hand into his side, I will never believe it.”
(Acts 2:32) . . .God resurrected this Jesus, and of this we are all witnesses.
(Acts 9:27) . . .So Barnabas came to his aid and led him to the apostles, and he told them in detail how on the road he had seen the Lord, and that he had spoken to him, and how in Damascus he had spoken boldly in the name of Jesus.
Why did you choose to pick on Paul? What about all the others?
Did you notice, Jesus did not reprove any of them. You therefore, are in no position to.
A reputable scholar is one who is esteemed by his peers, despite the opposition of views. One who is neither radical or unconventional in both his exegesis and conclusions.
Ultimately, one who has a reputation for being disciplined, restrained and sound in their methodologies, and sober and insightful in their establishment of doctrines and statements of faith. Have not been scandalized, nor unduly slandered.
Their is a consensus in scholarly circles of who the author of Hebrews is - no one identifiable from either internal or external evidence.
The reason that we can define reputable in this particular context i.e. textual criticism, because it is largely a science, and not a subjective art. Doctrinal exegesis, for example, is a entirely different assessment - only wisdom can discern the truth in many, many cases.
Right, so there are reputable scholars who do not deny Paul's writership of Hebrews.
In fact, you never did address the fact that reputable people disagree with other reputable people.
I unlike you have read what the bible says about the earth being flat, and many times quoted it to you.
You on your side ─
(a) have never cited bible verses that the earth is spherical, that the solar system gets its name from being heliocentric, that the authors of the bible had the least comprehension of modern cosmology; and
(b) never explained why the bible's cosmology should be that of the 21st century and not of the period in which it was written.
Why don't you do so now? Aren't Christians ─ ordinary Christians, not Christian apologists of course ─ supposed to be frank and honest?
Yes. A Christian is honest. Frank? Not necessarily. That would depend on what you mean.
A Christian is supposed to be cautious as serpents and yet innocent as doves (Matthew 10:16)
What does that mean?
I understand it to mean, be cautious of those who try to draw you into meaningless debates that go nowhere, other than allowing them a platform to preach their message in oposition to scripture.
Admittedly, I have not been very dove-like though. Atheist here make that a bit of a challenge for me. I'll work on it though.
I feel it's important to not keep
, but if you insist... Join the club.
The Bible and science do agree. They don't fight.
This is not what is seen in scripture, by sincere avid Bible students.
Paul mentioned the kingdom more than a dozen times, and explained it in much detail.
Jesus was not finished with his people, because he was now in heaven.
He had much work for them, in order to complete the work he started.
So starting at Pentecost 33 A.D., he started the Christian congregation - the body of which he is head, and he selected Paul for an assignment, which was in harmony with his work.
Noteworthy is the fact that the angels too, are involved in that work.
Revelation 14:6 I saw another angel flying in midheaven, and he had everlasting good news to declare to those who dwell on the earth, to every nation and tribe and tongue and people.
For more details, see Post #102
Jesus established the Kingdom of heaven, his followers subsequently failed to remain true to the kingdom of heaven idea. The Kingdom as Jesus taught it was replaced with the authoritarian church which is a human institution. Christianity has become a sect divided, unsalvageable mess!
Exactly, which is why clearly the church did not act under the auspices of God's spirit when deciding the canon, ...or doctrine, otherwise there would be no need for deliberation..
That makes no sense, as the Holy Spirit is not a dictionary nor an encyclopedia. On top of that, it assumes you must think that Jesus was either wrong or lying when he said he'd guide the Church to the end of time, and let me remind you that he was the one who appointed the Twelve to begin his congregation that was to continue on after him.
Do you really believe that?
It's not what we read in scripture.
(Luke 12:32) . . .“Have no fear, little flock, for your Father has approved of giving you the Kingdom.
(Luke 22:28-30) 28 “However, you are the ones who have stuck with me in my trials; 29and I make a covenant with you, just as my Father has made a covenant with me, for a kingdom, 30so that you may eat and drink at my table in my Kingdom, and sit on thrones to judge the 12 tribes of Israel.
The Kingdom as Jesus taught it was replaced with the authoritarian church which is a human institution. Christianity has become a sect divided, unsalvageable mess!
Not according to scripture.
That may be what you believe, but it has no support whatsoever in scripture. Nor history.
(Daniel 2:44) “In the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed. And this kingdom will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it alone will stand forever,
(Daniel 7:27) “‘And the kingdom and the rulership and the grandeur of the kingdoms under all the heavens were given to the people who are the holy ones of the Supreme One. Their kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all rulerships will serve and obey them.’
(2 Timothy 4:18) The Lord will rescue me from every wicked work and will save me for his heavenly Kingdom.
(Hebrews 12:28) Therefore, seeing that we are to receive a Kingdom that cannot be shaken, let us continue to receive undeserved kindness, through which we may acceptably offer God sacred service with godly fear and awe. 29 For our God is a consuming fire.
How extremely mistaken, you are.
What do you think the kingdom of God is, that you believe as you do?
Do you really believe that?
It's not what we read in scripture.
(Luke 12:32) . . .“Have no fear, little flock, for your Father has approved of giving you the Kingdom.
(Luke 22:28-30) 28 “However, you are the ones who have stuck with me in my trials; 29and I make a covenant with you, just as my Father has made a covenant with me, for a kingdom, 30so that you may eat and drink at my table in my Kingdom, and sit on thrones to judge the 12 tribes of Israel.
Not according to scripture.
That may be what you believe, but it has no support whatsoever in scripture. Nor history.
(Daniel 2:44) “In the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed. And this kingdom will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it alone will stand forever,
(Daniel 7:27) “‘And the kingdom and the rulership and the grandeur of the kingdoms under all the heavens were given to the people who are the holy ones of the Supreme One. Their kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all rulerships will serve and obey them.’
(2 Timothy 4:18) The Lord will rescue me from every wicked work and will save me for his heavenly Kingdom.
(Hebrews 12:28) Therefore, seeing that we are to receive a Kingdom that cannot be shaken, let us continue to receive undeserved kindness, through which we may acceptably offer God sacred service with godly fear and awe. 29 For our God is a consuming fire.
How extremely mistaken, you are.
What do you think the kingdom of God is, that you believe as you do?
Jesus answered, "My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.”
The Kingdom established by Jesus 2000 years ago is the fellowship of believers in the Father. Its spiritual. The original Gospel of the Kingdom will eventually subdue the world.
