Paul - An Apostle?

[nPeace]

Your right. It's likely a guy named Harry.

Paul is then presumably an apostle of Harry. Not Christ.

You said so yourself. Paul never mentioned who it was. So it's obviously not Christ.

I have to smile.
I said so myself? I did? If I ask you to point out where I said that, could you do so?
If lying was a crime, I am certain so many non-Christians would be prosecuted.

Maybe you have trouble reading English? I know that can happen when English is not someone's mother tongue.
Here is what I said... in English.
I don't recall Paul saying Jesus was on the road to Damascus.
I don't recall him pointing out the Lord to anyone.

How far that is from "Paul never mentioned who it was.", and I am sure I never said those words anywhere.
So which is it?

This kind of thing happens here a lot, when persons can't accept defeat. So you are not alone.
Busted egos seem to go haywire after inflation.
So, yeah. Let's talk about Harry, now.

 

[Sand Dancer]

So Peter was not an apostle, because he said he was.
Jesus was not the Messiah because he said he was.
Sennacherib was not king of Babylon Assyria because he said he was.
Isaac Newton was not a scientist, because he said he was.
I'm not a carpenter, because I say I am.

I marvel at the magnificent wisdom with which the unbelievers on RF reason.
I know a man who said he was an artist.
Turns out he was. I never saw him paint though, but all the work he presented, had his name on them, and people actually reccomended him... by name.

You were joking, right?

There are so many ways to be a Christian or to be saved, even in the Bible. Can we decide who is by their actions? The Bible says by the fruits, by their love, so if that is the case, there are very few Christians. But one person can't judge who is Christian and who is not, so if they wanna be Christian, who is to say? Quote the Bible to them, but you gotta pick which verse you think is the "real one" regarding salvation. And most unbelievers were believers at one time in life,and they tend to know the Bible better than current Christians.

 

[DNB]

I think you kinda misunderstood the dialogue between @fantome profane and myself, but no worries... these things do happen.
Or maybe I am the one who misunderstands you?

Possibly - either way?
Sorry, disregard my post, I did not convey it as intended

 

[Twilight Hue]

I have to smile.
I said so myself? I did? If I ask you to point out where I said that, could you do so?
If lying was a crime, I am certain so many non-Christians would be prosecuted.

Maybe you have trouble reading English? I know that can happen when English is not someone's mother tongue.
Here is what I said... in English.
I don't recall Paul saying Jesus was on the road to Damascus.
I don't recall him pointing out the Lord to anyone.

How far that is from "Paul never mentioned who it was.", and I am sure I never said those words anywhere.
So which is it?

This kind of thing happens here a lot, when persons can't accept defeat. So you are not alone.
Busted egos seem to go haywire after inflation.
So, yeah. Let's talk about Harry, now.

Speaking of having trouble reading English...

Presumably...

Here's the definition to help you out....

Definition of PRESUMABLY

 

[DNB]

Right, so there are reputable scholars who do not deny Paul's writership of Hebrews.
In fact, you never did address the fact that reputable people disagree with other reputable people.

You are correct about the fact that academia or scholarship does not guarantee truth or accuracy. But, as i said, in this particular case, a matter of quantifiable fact, the consensus amongst the scholarly circles is in favour of Paul not being the author of Hebrews. My personal opinion agrees with this unequivocally - the only Pauline aspect of the letter of Hebrews is the author's familiarity with the Levitical Law, and this is not a great or distinguishing feat during the early days of the Church - the first thousands of believers were Jews.

 

[nPeace]

"

Jesus answered, "My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.”

The Kingdom established by Jesus 2000 years ago is the fellowship of believers in the Father. Its spiritual. The original Gospel of the Kingdom will eventually subdue the world.

You don't even understand that scripture.
(John 17:16) . . .They are no part of the world, just as I am no part of the world.

(John 15:17-19) 17 “These things I command you, that you love one another. 18 If the world hates you, you know that it has hated me before it hated you. 19 If you were part of the world, the world would be fond of what is its own. Now because you are no part of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, for this reason the world hates you.

What did Jesus mean?
Nowhere does any scripture even suggest that God's kingdom which Jesus started preaching about, and commanded his disciples to keep on doing, was established on earth.
In fact, the scriptures even tells us that the Kingdom was not even established until some time after Jesus ascended to heaven.
Psalms 110:1 ; Acts 2:34, 35 - 34 For David did not ascend to the heavens, but he himself says, ‘Jehovah said to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand 35 until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet.”’

The Kingdom of God did not exist without a king, and it will only be complete with all its kings.
I gave you a few scriptures already. I am not sure that adding more will make any difference, but you are so very mistaken.
You might try reading the book of Revelation, at least all the places where the word kingdom is found.
I don't know what else I can say. I don't want to write a book.


PS
Just a friendly suggestion. Something I myself discovered quite recently.
When highlighting the font, use the darkest shade. It's easier on the eyes.

Persons had told me how distracting and hard to read the text are when they are in these colors.
I came to realize what they meant, when I switched to 'Dark Theme'.
It looks like this.

Perhaps most people now use 'Dark Themes', as it seems to be recommend for ease on the eyes.

 

[nPeace]

You are correct about the fact that academia or scholarship does not guarantee truth or accuracy. But, as i said, in this particular case, a matter of quantifiable fact, the consensus amongst the scholarly circles is in favour of Paul not being the author of Hebrews. My personal opinion agrees with this unequivocally - the only Pauline aspect of the letter of Hebrews is the author's familiarity with the Levitical Law, and this is not a great or distinguishing feat during the early days of the Church - the first thousands of believers were Jews.

So, I was asking why does that matter, or why is it valid?

 

[nPeace]

Speaking of having trouble reading English...

Presumably...

Here's the definition to help you out....

Definition of PRESUMABLY

Not sure what that has to do with me , but anyway, thanks.
Don't want to talk about Harry anymore?

 

[DNB]

That makes no sense, as the Holy Spirit is not a dictionary nor an encyclopedia. On top of that, it assumes you must think that Jesus was either wrong or lying when he said he'd guide the Church to the end of time, and let me remind you that he was the one who appointed the Twelve to begin his congregation that was to continue on after him.

This is basic Church History 101.

The Holy Spirit is decisive and precise - no one, according to Scripture, ever hesitated or second-guessed inspiration from the spirit. It was never delayed nor compromised. Whereas, the formulation of the canon of scripture was anything but that which defines inspiration from the Holy Spirit.
Christ guided the Church as far as they were willing to be guided by him. Christ made a promise, not established a mandate, as he promised many other ideal things that we do not see testified to today. A promise or offering, is not a veritable fact.

 

[DNB]

So, I was asking why does that matter, or why is it valid?

THe grounds on which it is based. But, that's the primary point. Secondly, the consensus is in favour of the epistle not being Pauline.
Two fundamental points, of which no opposing views outweigh, are grounds to accept the Epistles unknown authorship.

 

[nPeace]

There are so many ways to be a Christian or to be saved, even in the Bible. Can we decide who is by their actions?

I'm not sure what you mean by that, because most people today read the Bible however they want, with no regard for what it is saying.
It's part of the culture that exists, which does not value godliness, and so, the Bible has become, "Whatever"

Hence today people do not try to understand it.
Who can blame them though. The long record of corruption and hypocrisy in the history of religion, has certainly contributed to that... no doubt.
(Revelation 18:5) For her sins have massed together clear up to heaven, and God has called her acts of injustice to mind. (Jeremiah 23)

The Bible says by the fruits, by their love, so if that is the case, there are very few Christians.

You said it, and I agree.
Not just I, but the very few Christians - Starting from the head of the TRUE Christians, and onward.
(Matthew 7:14) . . .narrow is the gate and cramped the road leading off into life, and few are finding it.

(Matthew 22:14) . . .“For there are many invited, but few chosen.”

(Luke 13:23, 24) 23 Now a man said to him: “Lord, are those being saved few?” He said to them: 24 “Exert yourselves vigorously to get in through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will seek to get in but will not be able.

That's a good start, but the question is, will you continue from there?

But one person can't judge who is Christian and who is not, so if they wanna be Christian, who is to say?

When you say one person cannot judge, I assume you mean out of us humans today, and that is correct, but one person is judging, as in the case of Christ.
Hence, he expects us to know on what basis he judges.
He said it clearly.
(Matthew 24:14) . . .this good news of the Kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come. . .

(Matthew 25:40) . . .‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’

(2 Thessalonians 1:8) . . .as he brings vengeance on those who do not know God and those who do not obey the good news about our Lord Jesus.

Isn't that clear to you also?
Is that not saying one must know whom Jesus brothers are, whom he has entrusted with the responsibility to preach the good news?
How can we be saved if we don't identify, and listen to these ones?
(Romans 10:13-15) 13 For “everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will be saved.” 14 However, how will they call on him if they have not put faith in him? How, in turn, will they put faith in him about whom they have not heard? How, in turn, will they hear without someone to preach? 15 How, in turn, will they preach unless they have been sent out? Just as it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who declare good news of good things!”

Here we see that expression, "sent out", or "sent forth" - apostleship. True Christians are sent forth to preach. They are modern day apostles or prophets, in a sense.
They go forth, carrying the message of the good news of the kingdom.
Do you know who they are?

Quote the Bible to them, but you gotta pick which verse you think is the "real one" regarding salvation. And most unbelievers were believers at one time in life,and they tend to know the Bible better than current Christians.

'The "real one" regarding salvation'?
There is no confusion to those who understand basic principles.
For example, children who go to school, know that English is made up of many parts of speech.
They know that the teacher expects them to use the proper parts of speech, in their essays.
So when a child writes an essay, they do not think only one of those parts of speech should be right, and the others don't apply.

Likewise, the "child", that is, the humble individual, who studies the Bible, understands that the teacher - Jesus Christ - the greatest of all... with one exception, expects them to apply all of what he said. Not pick one above the other, or just one.

So for example,

1. 'Unless one repents, they cannot be saved." Luke 13:3-5
2. Unless one exercises faith in the son, one cannot be saved." John 3:16, 36
3. "Unless one goes through Jesus, they cannot be saved." John 10:9
4. "Unless one calls on the name of Jehovah, one cannot be saved." Romans 10:13
5. "unless one endures to the end, they cannot be saved." Matthew 10:22

etc.
A good student of the Bible, understands that all these apply in his "essay".
When they submit it, they don't expect to hear..
‘I never knew you! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness!’ (Matthew 7:23)


No one knows the Bible better than Christians. People are fooling themselves when they think that.
Ohhhhhhhhhhh. You mean "Christians". Yes, that is true, because many of those do not know the Bible.

Is that judging?
No. To the world, a "Christian" is anyone who believes in Jesus Christ. That could be Donald Trump, or anyone who loves to grab the women... you know where, or it can be anyone who swears ever 5 seconds.

On the other hand, a Christian (real/true) is one who follows Jesus' example, and teaching. That's scripture.
First century followers of Christ were called Christians, because their way of life, was patterned after Christ.
They practiced what he preached.

Notice one of those identifying marks of true Christianity.
John 13:35 - By this all will know that you are my disciples - if you have love among yourselves.”

Who today demonstrate love among themselves - the whole association of brothers / brotherhood, no matter what race, nationality, or background?
You can narrow it down to one, by simply asking some questions.

Which group of those professing to be Christian,

1. will refuse to take up arms against their fellowman, regardless of which part of the world they live... even at the cost of their life?
2. stay politically neutral, and do not take sides, in political or worldly conflicts?
3. are a united brotherhood in all parts of the world?

You decide.

 

[Colt]

You don't even understand that scripture.
(John 17:16) . . .They are no part of the world, just as I am no part of the world.

(John 15:17-19) 17 “These things I command you, that you love one another. 18 If the world hates you, you know that it has hated me before it hated you. 19 If you were part of the world, the world would be fond of what is its own. Now because you are no part of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, for this reason the world hates you.

What did Jesus mean?
Nowhere does any scripture even suggest that God's kingdom which Jesus started preaching about, and commanded his disciples to keep on doing, was established on earth.
In fact, the scriptures even tells us that the Kingdom was not even established until some time after Jesus ascended to heaven.
Psalms 110:1 ; Acts 2:34, 35 - 34 For David did not ascend to the heavens, but he himself says, ‘Jehovah said to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand 35 until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet.”’

The Kingdom of God did not exist without a king, and it will only be complete with all its kings.
I gave you a few scriptures already. I am not sure that adding more will make any difference, but you are so very mistaken.
You might try reading the book of Revelation, at least all the places where the word kingdom is found.
I don't know what else I can say. I don't want to write a book.


PS
Just a friendly suggestion. Something I myself discovered quite recently.
When highlighting the font, use the darkest shade. It's easier on the eyes.

View attachment 60225

Persons had told me how distracting and hard to read the text are when they are in these colors.
I came to realize what they meant, when I switched to 'Dark Theme'.
It looks like this.
View attachment 60223

Perhaps most people now use 'Dark Themes', as it seems to be recommend for ease on the eyes.

I think it's you who doesn't understand. Jesus established the Kingdom and used parables to teach about it. Spirit born disciples began entering the kingdom 2000 years ago.


Matthew 4:17

From that time Jesus began to preach and say, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”


Mark 1:15

and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.”

Luke 17:20-21

Now having been questioned by the Pharisees as to when the kingdom of God was coming, He answered them and said, “The kingdom of God is not coming with signs to be observed; nor will they say, ‘Look, here it is!’ or, ‘There it is!’ For behold, the kingdom of God is in your midst.”


Matthew 6:10

‘Your kingdom come.
Your will be done,
On earth as it is in heaven.

 

[nPeace]

THe grounds on which it is based. But, that's the primary point. Secondly, the consensus is in favour of the epistle not being Pauline.
Two fundamental points, of which no opposing views outweigh, are grounds to accept the Epistles unknown authorship.

Why does a consensus matter, or why is it valid, when as you said, there is no certainty, and we agree reputable experts disagree?
Maybe you should take a look at this thread.

 

[nPeace]

I think it's you who doesn't understand. Jesus established the Kingdom and used parables to teach about it. Spirit born disciples began entering the kingdom 2000 years ago.

How did they enter? Please explain.

Matthew 4:17

From that time Jesus began to preach and say, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”

Has drawn near. What does that mean to you?

Mark 1:15

and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.”

Is at hand. What does that mean to you?

Luke 17:20-21

Now having been questioned by the Pharisees as to when the kingdom of God was coming, He answered them and said, “The kingdom of God is not coming with signs to be observed; nor will they say, ‘Look, here it is!’ or, ‘There it is!’ For behold, the kingdom of God is in your midst.”

In your midst.
So has it drawn near, is at hand, or in their midst?

Matthew 6:10

‘Your kingdom come.
Your will be done,
On earth as it is in heaven.

Yes, that's what Jesus taught his followers to pray for. Do you still pray for it?

Thank you for using scripture. I really appreciate that.

 

[metis]

Oral traditions?

Yep. Not everything was put down in black & white, as beliefs, correct or incorrect, were passed down through many decades.

 

[Colt]

How did they enter? Please explain.


Has drawn near. What does that mean to you?


Is at hand. What does that mean to you?


In your midst.
So has it drawn near, is at hand, or in their midst?


Yes, that's what Jesus taught his followers to pray for. Do you still pray for it?

Thank you for using scripture. I really appreciate that.

* Jesus inaugurated the Kingdom, his apostles were his ambassadors.

* At hand means its now here.

* In our midst means its here. The Jews were looking for a material Messiah and a material kingdom. The Kingdom of Jesus is spiritual.

* I pray for it because its already here and I'm in it.

Faith is the requirement for entrance into the fellowship (kingdom) of believers.


1 John 1


1 What was from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we have looked at and touched with our hands, concerning the Word of Life— and the life was manifested, and we have seen and testify and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was manifested to us— what we have seen and heard we proclaim to you also, so that you too may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father, and with His Son Jesus Christ. These things we write, so that our joy may be made complete.

 

[lukethethird]

Yep. Not everything was put down in black & white, as beliefs, correct or incorrect, were passed down through many decades.

How would anybody know that?

 

[metis]

The Holy Spirit is decisive and precise - no one, according to Scripture, ever hesitated or second-guessed inspiration from the spirit. It was never delayed nor compromised. Whereas, the formulation of the canon of scripture was anything but that which defines inspiration from the Holy Spirit.
Christ guided the Church as far as they were willing to be guided by him. Christ made a promise, not established a mandate, as he promised many other ideal things that we do not see testified to today. A promise or offering, is not a veritable fact.

All you are doing is taking your suppositions and turning them into "facts", which no serious student of the Bible ever does. As oft said, "the Spirit works in mysterious ways".

Also, if Jesus made the promise to guide his Church, as scripture says he did, and then he said that the "gates of hell shall not prevail against it", which the scripture says he did, then who's the one "straying" here?

All you are doing is using your religious bigotry to color what you are willing to reject of accept. I know this as I went through the process myself, and leaving the church that I grew up in, and even having had thoughts about going into the ministry, was a painful process, let me tell ya. But leaving was the right thing to do-- at least for me.

Anyway, I'm just going to move on, so this is my farewell on this thread.

Take care.

 

[blü 2]

The Bible and science do agree. They don't fight.

You STILL haven't told us why the bible should reflect modern cosmology and not the cosmology of its time and place of writing.

Please clarify that point.

 

[lukethethird]

Paul
(Romans 11:13) . . .I am an apostle to the nations. . .
(Romans 15:15, 16) . . .undeserved kindness given to me from God  for me to be a public servant of Christ Jesus to the nations. I am engaging in the holy work of the good news of God, so that these nations might be an acceptable offering, sanctified with holy spirit. . .
(Galatians 2:7, 8) . . .they saw that I had been entrusted with the good news for those who are uncircumcised, just as Peter had been for those who are circumcised—  for the one who empowered Peter for an apostleship to those who are circumcised also empowered me for those who are of the nations. . .

(Galatians 2:11-14) 11 However, when Cephas came to Antioch, I resisted him face-to-face, because he was clearly in the wrong. 12 For before certain men from James arrived, he used to eat with people of the nations; but when they arrived, he stopped doing this and separated himself, fearing those of the circumcised class. 13 The rest of the Jews also joined him in putting on this pretense, so that even Barnabas was led along with them in their pretense. 14 But when I saw that they were not walking in step with the truth of the good news, I said to Cephas before them all: “If you, though you are a Jew, live as the nations do and not as Jews do, how can you compel people of the nations to live according to Jewish practice?”

Peter's own words...
You well know how unlawful it is for a Jew to associate with or approach a man of another race, and yet God has shown me that I should call no man defiled or unclean. (Acts 10:28)
Now I truly understand that God is not partial, but in every nation the man who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him. He sent out the word to the sons of Israel to declare to them the good news of peace through Jesus Christ - this one is Lord of all. (Acts 10:34-36)
To him all the prophets bear witness, that everyone putting faith in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.. . . (Acts 10:43)
(Acts 10:44-48) 44 While Peter was still speaking about these matters, the holy spirit came upon all those hearing the word. 45 And the circumcised believers who had come with Peter were amazed, because the free gift of the holy spirit was being poured out also on people of the nations. 46 For they heard them speaking in foreign languages and magnifying God. Then Peter responded: 47 “Can anyone deny water to prevent these from being baptized who have received the holy spirit just as we have?” 48 With that he commanded them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they requested him to stay for some days.

(Acts 11:1-4) 1 Now the apostles and the brothers who were in Judea heard that people of the nations had also accepted the word of God. 2 So when Peter came up to Jerusalem, the supporters of circumcision began to criticize him, 3 saying: “You went into the house of men who were not circumcised and ate with them.” 4 At this Peter went on to explain the matter in detail to them. . .
Acts 11:18 When they heard these things, they stopped objecting, and they glorified God, saying: “So, then, God has also granted to people of the nations repentance leading to life.”

I'll stop there, lest I write a book.
However, this understanding is truly great. Why?
Not only does it show the complete harmony of scripture, from Genesis to Revelation, but it shows the superlative wisdom of the grand creator - the one who authored the Bible, confirming 2 Timothy 3:16 - "All scripture is inspired of God..."

In summary ...
God - the God of order progressively reveals and works out his purpose to a completion. Genesis 3:15 ; Genesis 22:18

Spoiler: Jesus - to those of the house of Israel (Jews only)

(Matthew 15:24) [Jesus] answered: “I was not sent to anyone except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”

Spoiler: Jesus initial apostles - to those of the nation of Israel

(Matthew 10:5, 6) 5 These 12 Jesus sent out, giving them these instructions: “Do not go off into the road of the nations, and do not enter any Samaritan city; 6 but instead, go continually to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Spoiler: The later apostles, including Paul - to the nations

(Ephesians 3:1-9) ...by way of a revelation the sacred secret was made known to me... you can realize my comprehension of the sacred secret of the Christ. [which] has now been revealed to [Christ's] holy apostles and prophets by spirit... that people of the nations should, in union with Christ Jesus and through the good news, be joint heirs and fellow members of the body and partakers with us of the promise... I became a minister of this according to the free gift of God’s undeserved kindness that was given me through the operation of his power.
(2 Timothy 4:17) But the Lord stood near me and infused power into me, so that through me the preaching might be fully accomplished and all the nations might hear it; and I was rescued from the lion’s mouth. . .

God's purpose is progressing to its completion. Galatians 3 ; Ephesians 1:3-15

This is why the SDA do not understand the scriptures. They fail to see the wisdom of God in this sacred secret, and they hold on to the shadow, which have been left behind, by the reality. See Galatians 3:10-14 ; Ephesians 2:11-22


It appears to many people that there is no God, and it appears to others, there is.
.................................
I hope you get my point.

Unless you point out those appearances, the other person can't see them, so there are merely appearances... to that person.
In other words, it's much better to present those appearance to the other person. What are they? For example... ?

So Paul's and Peter's commission to be apostles was granted by God, or so Paul claims.