Paul - An Apostle?

[Twilight Hue]

I believe there is no evidence to support that view.

The catholic church was the only game in town with sole rights to the entire Bible and possession forbidden for the lay person under most circumstances.

Bible Forbidden to the Laity

justforcatholics.org

Who Compiled the Bible and When?

The Old Testament books were written well before Jesus’ Incarnation, and all of the New Testament books were written by roughly the end of the first century A.D...

www.catholic.com

 

[Subduction Zone]

So I believe you make all kinds of assumptions and consider them facts. Is it a fact that Matthew didn't know Greek? Isn't it possible that Greek text could be a translation of an original? Granted we don't have much before 300AD but how can one say it didn't exist simply because nothing remains?

That is not an assumption. You should be asking why scholars believe this to be the case. As to how scholars know that it is a translation, there ae ways of spotting them. I am not a linguist, but even I have read articles where after a while it is clear that it the original was not English due to the mangled idioms that were used.

You should never make the accusation of "assumption" unless you can prove it. I could have easily have refuted your post by saying "Prove that I made assumptions". Also you are making the typical apologist tactic of creating unlikely "maybes". That is very very weak support for your beliefs. When one only has a long series of "maybes" all of them rather unlikely it becomes obvious to most that those beliefs are very probably wrong.

 

[paarsurrey]

Was Paul a true Christian?​

But Paul was not a follower of Jesus/Yeshua- the Israelite Messiah, and Yeshua was an Israelite, never a Christian, please, right?

Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

Paul - An Apostle?

No, Paul was not apostle of Yeshua- the truthful Israelite Messiah, I understand.

Regards

 

[Kenny]

Was Paul really a true Christian, and apostle, as the scriptures say?
What do you believe, and does your belief agree with the scriptures?

Absolutely. Called by God and separated by the laying on of hands.

 

[vulcanlogician]

Paul was a skilled and beautiful writer. THAT'S why it was decided that he MUST be included in the canon.

But is that a GOOD reason? You decide.

 

[paarsurrey]

Paul - An Apostle?

• paarsurrey #604

No, Paul was not apostle of Yeshua- the truthful Israelite Messiah, I understand.

Regards

• #607

Rather Paul was an enemy of Jesus/Yeshua- the truthful Israelite Messiah even after when Paul faked a vision of seeing risen Yeshua, I understand, please, right?

Regards
____________

Was Paul a true Christian?​

• paarsurrey #603

But Paul was not a follower of Jesus/Yeshua- the Israelite Messiah, and Yeshua was an Israelite, never a Christian, please, right?

Regards

 

[blü 2]

Was Paul really a true Christian, and apostle, as the scriptures say?
What do you believe, and does your belief agree with the scriptures?

Paul was a Christian in the sense that he had dang sure given up on being Jewish.

He did away with circumcision, with Saturday sabbath, sowed the untenable seed that Augustine of Hippo was later to grow into a jungle, the "Fall" (which simply doesn't exist in the Garden story, Genesis 2-3) and so on. On the other hand he did these things because (it appears) he was an organizer, a salesman and convinced he was right about Jesus, whom he'd never met and only knew about through visions (as he expressly states in Galatians 1:11-12) ─ he certainly knew very little about any human version of Jesus, and seems to have shown zero interest.

He wasn't particularly antisemitic, to be fair ─ for that you go to Matthew 27:25 in particular and to John in general.

 

[metis]

Absolutely. Called by God and separated by the laying on of hands.

Believe it or not, I got into a discussion with a theologian on this at a seminar he was teaching whereas he said that Paul basically bastardized Christianity for the same reason we read from some others here. After the session, I went up to him and asked if this was supposedly the case, then why would the Twelve have anything to do with him, especially because of his past?

In the next session, he started his presentation off with that he changed his mind about Paul.

True story.

 

[metis]

Paul was a Christian in the sense that he had dang sure given up on being Jewish.

Paul was Greek educated, so certainly wasn't anybody's dummy, but Jewish scholars have noted that he sometimes doesn't get the Law right. So, he may have been quite secular until his conversion to Christianity.

 

[blü 2]

Paul was Greek educated, so certainly wasn't anybody's dummy, but Jewish scholars have noted that he sometimes doesn't get the Law right. So, he may have been quite secular until his conversion to Christianity.

Thanks for that information ─ I hadn't come across it. Though he 'fessed to persecuting Christians before his conversion, which would suggest at least some youthful enthusiasm, even if not well versed.

 

[paarsurrey]

Paul was Greek educated, so certainly wasn't anybody's dummy, but Jewish scholars have noted that he sometimes doesn't get the Law right. So, he may have been quite secular until his conversion to Christianity.

Paul invented all the basic creeds of new religion termed "Christianity", so he never followed or converted to the religion that Jesus/Yeshua- the truthful Israelite Messiah, I understand, please, right?
Paul was a self-made Apostle, right?
Regards

 

[metis]

Paul invented all the basic creeds of new religion termed "Christianity", so he never followed or converted to the religion that Jesus/Yeshua- the truthful Israelite Messiah, I understand, please, right?

He converted on the road to Damascus.

Paul was a self-made Apostle, right?

If my memory is correct, the title of "apostle" was not assigned to him during his lifetime but only later by the Church. Personally, I don't call him an "apostle", but he was quite brilliant even if his theology within Judaism was quite shaky. His letters were more read by the Way in the first century than any other source, and he used brilliant symbolism that still used today throughout Christianity, even though much of his symbolism is not too well understood with today's Christians as being allegorical.

 

[Ebionite]

Paul was a self-made Apostle, right?

Not a true apostle, and not entirely self-made.

Paul's accounts of being appointed as a witness are inconsistent because in one account he is appointed directly and in another he is told of it by Ananais.

Acts 26​
14	And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? [it is] hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
15	And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest.
16	But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee;
17	Delivering thee from the people, and [from] the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee,
18	To open their eyes, [and] to turn [them] from darkness to light, and [from] the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

Acts 22​
7	And I fell unto the ground, and heard a voice saying unto me, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
8	And I answered, Who art thou, Lord? And he said unto me, I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom thou persecutest.
9	And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me.
10	And I said, What shall I do, Lord? And the Lord said unto me, Arise, and go into Damascus; and there it shall be told thee of all things which are appointed for thee to do.
11	And when I could not see for the glory of that light, being led by the hand of them that were with me, I came into Damascus.
12	And one Ananias, a devout man according to the law, having a good report of all the Jews which dwelt [there],
13	Came unto me, and stood, and said unto me, Brother Saul, receive thy sight. And the same hour I looked up upon him.
14	And he said, The God of our fathers hath chosen thee, that thou shouldest know his will, and see that Just One, and shouldest hear the voice of his mouth.
15	For thou shalt be his witness unto all men of what thou hast seen and heard.

The account in Acts of what Paul was told by Ananais says nothing of Paul being a witness.

Acts 9​
13	Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem:
14	And here he hath authority from the chief priests to bind all that call on thy name.
15	But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:
16	For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.
17	And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, [even] Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.

 

[Ebionite]

Believe it or not, I got into a discussion with a theologian on this at a seminar he was teaching whereas he said that Paul basically bastardized Christianity for the same reason we read from some others here. After the session, I went up to him and asked if this was supposedly the case, then why would the Twelve have anything to do with him, especially because of his past?

In the next session, he started his presentation off with that he changed his mind about Paul.

True story.

According to Acts it was because of the endorsement from Barnabas.

But Barnabas took him, and brought [him] to the apostles, and declared unto them how he had seen the Lord in the way, and that he had spoken to him, and how he had preached boldly at Damascus in the name of Jesus.
Acts 9:27

Part of his role was to bear the name.

But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:
Acts 9:15

 

[paarsurrey]

paarsurrey said:
Paul was a self-made Apostle, right?

Not a true apostle, and not entirely self-made.

Paul's accounts of being appointed as a witness are inconsistent because in one account he is appointed directly and in another he is told of it by Ananais.

Acts 26​
14	And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? [it is] hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
15	And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest.
16	But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee;
17	Delivering thee from the people, and [from] the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee,
18	To open their eyes, [and] to turn [them] from darkness to light, and [from] the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

Acts 22​
7	And I fell unto the ground, and heard a voice saying unto me, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
8	And I answered, Who art thou, Lord? And he said unto me, I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom thou persecutest.
9	And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me.
10	And I said, What shall I do, Lord? And the Lord said unto me, Arise, and go into Damascus; and there it shall be told thee of all things which are appointed for thee to do.
11	And when I could not see for the glory of that light, being led by the hand of them that were with me, I came into Damascus.
12	And one Ananias, a devout man according to the law, having a good report of all the Jews which dwelt [there],
13	Came unto me, and stood, and said unto me, Brother Saul, receive thy sight. And the same hour I looked up upon him.
14	And he said, The God of our fathers hath chosen thee, that thou shouldest know his will, and see that Just One, and shouldest hear the voice of his mouth.
15	For thou shalt be his witness unto all men of what thou hast seen and heard.

The account in Acts of what Paul was told by Ananais says nothing of Paul being a witness.

Acts 9​
13	Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem:
14	And here he hath authority from the chief priests to bind all that call on thy name.
15	But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:
16	For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.
17	And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, [even] Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.

And none of the above is from Yeshua-the truthful Israelite Messiah, right?

Regards

 

[Ebionite]

paarsurrey said:
Paul was a self-made Apostle, right?


And none of the above is from Yeshua-the truthful Israelite Messiah, right?

Regards

No, Acts 9:15-16 is.