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Paul and Ex Nihilo

Fool

ALL in all
Premium Member
It is nothing in the sense of no-thing. A "thing" is an object that has form. A thing, is matterial. God is Spirit, which means no form. It is not a "thing".
a thing doesn't have to have a form. you're twisting the definition.

thing | Search Online Etymology Dictionary

god is a being. a something or no thing, not a nothing, because god is everything


Ex nihilio is about matter being created, specifically. God's being is not considered to be matter.
i know what ex nihilo is and it's a farce. god has being and being is not synonymous or compatible with nothing. god is something, or being is a thing.


Unformed potential, is not matter. Form arises from Formlessness.
oh but it is. there are states of matter that don't have forms. you're confused in that the 2nd verse tells you that it doesn't have form, and having no contrast it would look empty like looking into a black hole, or at a white picture, which has no contrast. atheists having NDE's have described it as such. everything in front, behind, above, and below being of one indistinguishable gloom, or impenetrable shade of infinite shadow.


Ex nihilo is a farce, a lie,


genesis doesn't say there is no matter. jesus said that the form that matter takes is worthless, or counts for nothing.
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Again, why are you ignoring what I posted about why Genesis was written? Should it be read as a magical science book, or a mythology about the monotheistic God over the polytheist dieies of nature, asserting that God created all of those things, so they are inferior to Elohim?

For your reference again:

Read through the eyes of the people who wrote it, Genesis 1 would seem very different from the way most people today would tend to read it -- including both evolutionists who may dismiss it as a prescientific account of origins, and creationists who may try to defend it as the true science and literal history of origins. For most peoples in the ancient world the various regions of nature were divine. Sun, moon and stars were gods. There were sky gods and earth gods and water gods. There were gods of light and darkness, rivers and vegetation, animals and fertility. Though for us nature has been “demythologized” and “naturalized” -- in large part because of this very passage of Scripture -- for ancient Jewish faith a divinized nature posed a fundamental religious problem.

In addition, pharaohs, kings and heroes were often seen as sons of gods, or at least as special mediators between the divine and human spheres. The greatness and vaunted power and glory of the successive waves of empires that impinged on or conquered Israel (Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia) posed an analogous problem of idolatry in the human sphere.

In the light of this historical context it becomes clearer what Genesis 1 is undertaking and accomplishing: a radical and sweeping affirmation of monotheism vis-à-vis polytheism, syncretism and idolatry. Each day of creation takes on two principal categories of divinity in the pantheons of the day, and declares that these are not gods at all, but creatures -- creations of the one true God who is the only one, without a second or third. Each day dismisses an additional cluster of deities, arranged in a cosmological and symmetrical order.

On the first day the gods of light and darkness are dismissed. On the second day, the gods of sky and sea. On the third day, earth gods and gods of vegetation. On the fourth day, sun, moon and star gods. The fifth and sixth days take away any associations with divinity from the animal kingdom. And finally human existence, too, is emptied of any intrinsic divinity -- while at the same time all human beings, from the greatest to the least, and not just pharaohs, kings and heroes, are granted a divine likeness and mediation.

On each day of creation another set of idols is smashed. These, O Israel, are no gods at all -- even the great gods and rulers of conquering superpowers. They are the creations of that transcendent One who is not to be confused with any piece of the furniture of the universe of creaturely habitation. The creation is good, it is very good, but it is not divine.​

And one last time, Ex nihilo is simply saying matter was created out of God's being, as opposed to be eternally present alongside of God. Saying "God's being", shows something there is not an argument against it. It specifically claims that matter was created out of God's being. It's defined as that.

Do you agree that matter was created? Then that's ex-nihilo. Do you believe matter was and has always been there? Then that is Ex nihilo nihil fit, "uncreated matter".
 

Fool

ALL in all
Premium Member
Again, why are you ignoring what I posted about why Genesis was written? Should it be read as a magical science book, or a mythology about the monotheistic God over the polytheist dieies of nature, asserting that God created all of those things, so they are inferior to Elohim?

For your reference again:

Read through the eyes of the people who wrote it, Genesis 1 would seem very different from the way most people today would tend to read it -- including both evolutionists who may dismiss it as a prescientific account of origins, and creationists who may try to defend it as the true science and literal history of origins. For most peoples in the ancient world the various regions of nature were divine. Sun, moon and stars were gods. There were sky gods and earth gods and water gods. There were gods of light and darkness, rivers and vegetation, animals and fertility. Though for us nature has been “demythologized” and “naturalized” -- in large part because of this very passage of Scripture -- for ancient Jewish faith a divinized nature posed a fundamental religious problem.

In addition, pharaohs, kings and heroes were often seen as sons of gods, or at least as special mediators between the divine and human spheres. The greatness and vaunted power and glory of the successive waves of empires that impinged on or conquered Israel (Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia) posed an analogous problem of idolatry in the human sphere.

In the light of this historical context it becomes clearer what Genesis 1 is undertaking and accomplishing: a radical and sweeping affirmation of monotheism vis-à-vis polytheism, syncretism and idolatry. Each day of creation takes on two principal categories of divinity in the pantheons of the day, and declares that these are not gods at all, but creatures -- creations of the one true God who is the only one, without a second or third. Each day dismisses an additional cluster of deities, arranged in a cosmological and symmetrical order.

On the first day the gods of light and darkness are dismissed. On the second day, the gods of sky and sea. On the third day, earth gods and gods of vegetation. On the fourth day, sun, moon and star gods. The fifth and sixth days take away any associations with divinity from the animal kingdom. And finally human existence, too, is emptied of any intrinsic divinity -- while at the same time all human beings, from the greatest to the least, and not just pharaohs, kings and heroes, are granted a divine likeness and mediation.

On each day of creation another set of idols is smashed. These, O Israel, are no gods at all -- even the great gods and rulers of conquering superpowers. They are the creations of that transcendent One who is not to be confused with any piece of the furniture of the universe of creaturely habitation. The creation is good, it is very good, but it is not divine.​

And one last time, Ex nihilo is simply saying matter was created out of God's being, as opposed to be eternally present alongside of God. Saying "God's being", shows something there is not an argument against it. It specifically claims that matter was created out of God's being. It's defined as that.

Do you agree that matter was created? Then that's ex-nihilo. Do you believe matter was and has always been there? Then that is Ex nihilo nihil fit, "uncreated matter".
It should be read based on the fact, that in western science, there are no absolutes. But science; especially the soft sciences and physics are more and more pecularly starting to look like what the ancients describe as consciousness becoming. FYI, spirit in genesis 1:2 means mind too


https://phys.org/news/2011-03-quantum-no-hiding-theorem-experimentally.html
 
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Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
It should be read based on the fact, that in western science, there are no absolutes.
Why should you read Genesis based upon that? None of the authors of it had any idea about these things. The essay explained that.

But science; especially the soft sciences and physics are more and more pecularly starting to look like what the ancients describe as consciousness becoming. FYI, spirit in genesis 1:2 means mind too
So you are saying that the authors of Genesis, secretly were stating facts of science that were beyond them at that time? I'm sorry, but that's not supportable.
 

Fool

ALL in all
Premium Member
Why should you read Genesis based upon that? None of the authors of it had any idea about these things. The essay explained that.


So you are saying that the authors of Genesis, secretly were stating facts of science that were beyond them at that time? I'm sorry, but that's not supportable.
no, i'm saying ex nihilo is a farce; whether scientific, or as understood in the bible.


god is not nothing, god is no -thing(singular) because god is all things(plural).


exodus 3:14 tells you that without question. god is ever present and there is nothing apart from it. god and this or that are together being one thing and having myriad forms


Acts 17:28 For in Him we live and move and have our being.' As some of your own poets have said, 'We are His offspring.'

god didn't create something from nothing just to occupy it. that would mean that there is something separate/apart from god and potentially equal to god in contrast. god in that aspect wouldn't be infinite/eternal because there is this nothing that isn't god and supposedly from which creation can come into being


Isaiah 45:5
 
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LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
there is a somewhat decent and certainly detailed dissertation on the interpretation of Genesis 1:1 I recall reading a few years ago I will try to locate
I couldn't find it among my files but did locate it searching:
Wilson, J. D. (2010). A Case for the Traditional Translation and Interpretation of Genesis 1:1 Based Upon a Multi-Leveled Linguistic Analysis. PhD Dissertation (Southern Baptist Theological Seminary). See Attached
yet the bible doesn't agree with it. genesis 1:2. there was god, there was spirit, and there was this liquid.
Not if one interprets Gen. 1:2 as in the case of the attached document as a secondary clause. You can review the argument (which isn't great in many places from a linguistic perspective but is well enough for its purposes) as well as the primary and secondary literature in the attached.

However, it seems as if you had your questioned answered before you asked, at least in your estimation.
 

Attachments

  • case for the traditional translation and interpretation of Gen. 1.1.pdf
    4 MB · Views: 0

Fool

ALL in all
Premium Member
I couldn't find it among my files but did locate it searching:
Wilson, J. D. (2010). A Case for the Traditional Translation and Interpretation of Genesis 1:1 Based Upon a Multi-Leveled Linguistic Analysis. PhD Dissertation (Southern Baptist Theological Seminary). See Attached

Not if one interprets Gen. 1:2 as in the case of the attached document as a secondary clause. You can review the argument (which isn't great in many places from a linguistic perspective but is well enough for its purposes) as well as the primary and secondary literature in the attached.

However, it seems as if you had your questioned answered before you asked, at least in your estimation.
spirit and waters aren't listed under created things in genesis 1:1. nor are they mentioned in genesis 1:1. only heaven and earth stuff are created and they come from spirit moving on waters as further explained in genesis 1:2.
 
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