Paul & Mitraism

[sandy whitelinger]

This relationship came up in another thread. I'm ignorant of this concern. No one cared to explain much with clarity. Maybe I can get some this way.

What is the relationship between the theology of Paul and this little known mystery religion?

 

[Augustus]

What is the relationship between the theology of Paul and this little known mystery religion?

Nothing?

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Nothing?

There seemed to be some mention of communion and the Catholic practice of transsubstantiation (sp?). The thread got garbled with pissing contests and ambiguity at that point.

 

[Buddha Dharma]

What is the relationship between the theology of Paul and this little known mystery religion?

Not sure about connection through Paul, but when it comes to general scholastic consensus on what a mystery religion is and what it's practices constitute- Christianity could be argued as being one.

Especially sacrement-oriented sects.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Not sure about connection through Paul, but when it comes to general scholastic consensus on what a mystery religion is and what it's practices constitute- Christianity could be argued as being one.

Especially sacrement-oriented sects.

The sense of mystery religion I intended was more of we don't know much about it rather than a belief in mysteries.

I picked up a hint from the previous thread that Paul my have instituted sacraments due to some percieved influence of Mithraism.

 

[Augustus]

There seemed to be some mention of communion and the Catholic practice of transsubstantiation (sp?).

That would be a stretch.

They had some kind of feast that also had ritualistic functions.

It was a localised, men only cult, popular among upwardly mobile military folk and shares a couple of fairly loose similarities with Christian rituals (overall theologies seem markedly different) which may have emerged before, concurrently with or after those in Christianity. It also shared a 'community' identity like Christianity.

Also, similarities don't necessarily occur through imitation, they can simply reflect the fact that they emerged at a similar time in a similar environment.

Christianity was certainly influenced by its environment, both Jewish and Hellenic, but there is no real evidence that it was influenced in any way by Mithraism (or vice versa).

 

[sandy whitelinger]

That would be a stretch.

They had some kind of feast that also had ritualistic functions.

It was a localised, men only cult, popular among upwardly mobile military folk and shares a couple of fairly loose similarities with Christian rituals (overall theologies seem markedly different) which may have emerged before, concurrently with or after those in Christianity. It also shared a 'community' identity like Christianity.

Also, similarities don't necessarily occur through imitation, they can simply reflect the fact that they emerged at a similar time in a similar environment.

Christianity was certainly influenced by its environment, both Jewish and Hellenic, but there is no real evidence that it was influenced in any way by Mithraism (or vice versa).

We here is the wealth of information about Mithraism these summary judgements of Paul's plagiarism are based?

 

[Augustus]

We here is the wealth of information about Mithraism these summary judgements of Paul's plagiarism are based?

Where is the evidence that Paul 'plagiarised' Mithraism? There isn't any.

The only links are a couple of loose ritual similarities, little known similarity between the religions though as we don't actually know a great deal about Mithraist teachings.

These similarities were noted by early Church writers who accused Mithraism of copying Christian rituals.

The "Christianity is Mithraism" theories tend to make most sense in conjunction with Christ myth theories, which are very obviously flawed in their own right.

Greek philosophy seems far more likely in terms of "pagan" influence on Christianity, see for example: Philo's Logos as Divine Mediator

 

[shunyadragon]

This relationship came up in another thread. I'm ignorant of this concern. No one cared to explain much with clarity. Maybe I can get some this way.

What is the relationship between the theology of Paul and this little known mystery religion?

First it is not little known. It was a common belief even among Roman centurions. The concern are the parallels between Mithraism and Christianity. Mithraism has a long history as Mitra in Hindu mythology, and Mithra in Persian mythology.Mithra was described as the Sun God, and the holiday for Mithra was Christmas.

From: Mithra the Pagan Christ | Mithraism and Christianity | Mithras the Sun God
"Both Mithras and Christ were described variously as 'the Way,' 'the Truth,' 'the Light,' 'the Life,' 'the Word,' 'the Son of God,' 'the Good Shepherd.' The Christian litany to Jesus could easily be an allegorical litany to the sun-god. Mithras is often represented as carrying a lamb on his shoulders, just as Jesus is. Midnight services were found in both religions. The virgin mother...was easily merged with the virgin mother Mary. Petra, the sacred rock of Mithraism, became Peter, the foundation of the Christian Church."

Gerald Berry, Religions of the World

"Mithra or Mitra is...worshipped as Itu (Mitra-Mitu-Itu) in every house of the Hindus in India. Itu (derivative of Mitu or Mitra) is considered as the Vegetation-deity. This Mithra or Mitra (Sun-God) is believed to be a Mediator between God and man, between the Sky and the Earth. It is said that Mithra or [the] Sun took birth in the Cave on December 25th. It is also the belief of the Christian world that Mithra or the Sun-God was born of [a] Virgin. He travelled far and wide. He has twelve satellites, which are taken as the Sun's disciples.... [The Sun's] great festivals are observed in the Winter Solstice and the Vernal Equinox—Christmas and Easter. His symbol is the Lamb...."

Swami Prajnanananda, Christ the Saviour and Christ Myth

Mithra has the following in common with the Jesus character:

• Mithra was born on December 25th of the virgin Anahita.
• The babe was wrapped in swaddling clothes, placed in a manger and attended by shepherds.
• He was considered a great traveling teacher and master.
• He had 12 companions or "disciples."
• He performed miracles.
• As the "great bull of the Sun," Mithra sacrificed himself for world peace.
• 
  He ascended to heaven.
• Mithra was viewed as the Good Shepherd, the "Way, the Truth and the Light," the Redeemer, the Savior, the Messiah.
• Mithra is omniscient, as he "hears all, sees all, knows all: none can deceive him."
• He was identified with both the Lion and the Lamb.
• His sacred day was Sunday, "the Lord's Day," hundreds of years before the appearance of Christ.
• His religion had a eucharist or "Lord's Supper."
• Mithra "sets his marks on the foreheads of his soldiers."
• Mithraism emphasized baptism.

 

[Augustus]

First it is not little known. It was a common belief even among Roman centurions. The concern are the parallels between Mithraism and Christianity. Mithraism has a long history as Mitra in Hindu mythology, and Mithra in Persian mythology.Mithra was described as the Sun God, and the holiday for Mithra was Christmas.

From: Mithra the Pagan Christ | Mithraism and Christianity | Mithras the Sun God
"Both Mithras and Christ were described variously as 'the Way,' 'the Truth,' 'the Light,' 'the Life,' 'the Word,' 'the Son of God,' 'the Good Shepherd.' The Christian litany to Jesus could easily be an allegorical litany to the sun-god. Mithras is often represented as carrying a lamb on his shoulders, just as Jesus is. Midnight services were found in both religions. The virgin mother...was easily merged with the virgin mother Mary. Petra, the sacred rock of Mithraism, became Peter, the foundation of the Christian Church."

Gerald Berry, Religions of the World

"Mithra or Mitra is...worshipped as Itu (Mitra-Mitu-Itu) in every house of the Hindus in India. Itu (derivative of Mitu or Mitra) is considered as the Vegetation-deity. This Mithra or Mitra (Sun-God) is believed to be a Mediator between God and man, between the Sky and the Earth. It is said that Mithra or [the] Sun took birth in the Cave on December 25th. It is also the belief of the Christian world that Mithra or the Sun-God was born of [a] Virgin. He travelled far and wide. He has twelve satellites, which are taken as the Sun's disciples.... [The Sun's] great festivals are observed in the Winter Solstice and the Vernal Equinox—Christmas and Easter. His symbol is the Lamb...."

Swami Prajnanananda, Christ the Saviour and Christ Myth

Mithra has the following in common with the Jesus character:

• 
  
  
  • Mithra was born on December 25th of the virgin Anahita.
  • The babe was wrapped in swaddling clothes, placed in a manger and attended by shepherds.
  • He was considered a great traveling teacher and master.
  • He had 12 companions or "disciples."
  • He performed miracles.
  • As the "great bull of the Sun," Mithra sacrificed himself for world peace.
  • 
    He ascended to heaven.
  • Mithra was viewed as the Good Shepherd, the "Way, the Truth and the Light," the Redeemer, the Savior, the Messiah.
  • Mithra is omniscient, as he "hears all, sees all, knows all: none can deceive him."
  • He was identified with both the Lion and the Lamb.
  • His sacred day was Sunday, "the Lord's Day," hundreds of years before the appearance of Christ.
  • His religion had a eucharist or "Lord's Supper."
  • Mithra "sets his marks on the foreheads of his soldiers."
  • Mithraism emphasized baptism.

Most of that is made up nonsense. There isn't any actual evidence for it.

For example, one of the few things we know about Roman Mithraism is that he was born from rock. It's also highly debatable that Roman Mithras is actually the same god as Indic Mitra.

 

[shunyadragon]

Most of that is made up nonsense. There isn't any actual evidence for it.

For example, one of the few things we know about Roman Mithraism is that he was born from rock. It's also highly debatable that Roman Mithras is actually the same god as Indic Mitra.

You are living in denial, these are factual parallels between Mithraism and Christianity, just as you are in denial with the similaries between Mary and Roman Goddesses

Of course there are differences, because they are two different religions.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

First it is not little known. It was a common belief even among Roman centurions. The concern are the parallels between Mithraism and Christianity. Mithraism has a long history as Mitra in Hindu mythology, and Mithra in Persian mythology.Mithra was described as the Sun God, and the holiday for Mithra was Christmas.

From: Mithra the Pagan Christ | Mithraism and Christianity | Mithras the Sun God
"Both Mithras and Christ were described variously as 'the Way,' 'the Truth,' 'the Light,' 'the Life,' 'the Word,' 'the Son of God,' 'the Good Shepherd.' The Christian litany to Jesus could easily be an allegorical litany to the sun-god. Mithras is often represented as carrying a lamb on his shoulders, just as Jesus is. Midnight services were found in both religions. The virgin mother...was easily merged with the virgin mother Mary. Petra, the sacred rock of Mithraism, became Peter, the foundation of the Christian Church."

Gerald Berry, Religions of the World

"Mithra or Mitra is...worshipped as Itu (Mitra-Mitu-Itu) in every house of the Hindus in India. Itu (derivative of Mitu or Mitra) is considered as the Vegetation-deity. This Mithra or Mitra (Sun-God) is believed to be a Mediator between God and man, between the Sky and the Earth. It is said that Mithra or [the] Sun took birth in the Cave on December 25th. It is also the belief of the Christian world that Mithra or the Sun-God was born of [a] Virgin. He travelled far and wide. He has twelve satellites, which are taken as the Sun's disciples.... [The Sun's] great festivals are observed in the Winter Solstice and the Vernal Equinox—Christmas and Easter. His symbol is the Lamb...."

Swami Prajnanananda, Christ the Saviour and Christ Myth

Mithra has the following in common with the Jesus character:

• 
  
  
  • Mithra was born on December 25th of the virgin Anahita.
  • The babe was wrapped in swaddling clothes, placed in a manger and attended by shepherds.
  • He was considered a great traveling teacher and master.
  • He had 12 companions or "disciples."
  • He performed miracles.
  • As the "great bull of the Sun," Mithra sacrificed himself for world peace.
  • 
    He ascended to heaven.
  • Mithra was viewed as the Good Shepherd, the "Way, the Truth and the Light," the Redeemer, the Savior, the Messiah.
  • Mithra is omniscient, as he "hears all, sees all, knows all: none can deceive him."
  • He was identified with both the Lion and the Lamb.
  • His sacred day was Sunday, "the Lord's Day," hundreds of years before the appearance of Christ.
  • His religion had a eucharist or "Lord's Supper."
  • Mithra "sets his marks on the foreheads of his soldiers."
  • Mithraism emphasized baptism.

Thanks for the linc. Right off the bat I have a question. I thought Mithra was born from a rock.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

You are living in denial, these are factual parallels between Mithraism and Christianity.

Isn't it also a fact that lots of people were born on my birthday. Don't mean we're kinfolk thought.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

First it is not little known. It was a common belief even among Roman centurions. The concern are the parallels between Mithraism and Christianity. Mithraism has a long history as Mitra in Hindu mythology, and Mithra in Persian mythology.Mithra was described as the Sun God, and the holiday for Mithra was Christmas.

From: Mithra the Pagan Christ | Mithraism and Christianity | Mithras the Sun God
"Both Mithras and Christ were described variously as 'the Way,' 'the Truth,' 'the Light,' 'the Life,' 'the Word,' 'the Son of God,' 'the Good Shepherd.' The Christian litany to Jesus could easily be an allegorical litany to the sun-god. Mithras is often represented as carrying a lamb on his shoulders, just as Jesus is. Midnight services were found in both religions. The virgin mother...was easily merged with the virgin mother Mary. Petra, the sacred rock of Mithraism, became Peter, the foundation of the Christian Church."

Gerald Berry, Religions of the World

"Mithra or Mitra is...worshipped as Itu (Mitra-Mitu-Itu) in every house of the Hindus in India. Itu (derivative of Mitu or Mitra) is considered as the Vegetation-deity. This Mithra or Mitra (Sun-God) is believed to be a Mediator between God and man, between the Sky and the Earth. It is said that Mithra or [the] Sun took birth in the Cave on December 25th. It is also the belief of the Christian world that Mithra or the Sun-God was born of [a] Virgin. He travelled far and wide. He has twelve satellites, which are taken as the Sun's disciples.... [The Sun's] great festivals are observed in the Winter Solstice and the Vernal Equinox—Christmas and Easter. His symbol is the Lamb...."

Swami Prajnanananda, Christ the Saviour and Christ Myth

Mithra has the following in common with the Jesus character:

• 
  
  
  • Mithra was born on December 25th of the virgin Anahita.
  • The babe was wrapped in swaddling clothes, placed in a manger and attended by shepherds.
  • He was considered a great traveling teacher and master.
  • He had 12 companions or "disciples."
  • He performed miracles.
  • As the "great bull of the Sun," Mithra sacrificed himself for world peace.
  • 
    He ascended to heaven.
  • Mithra was viewed as the Good Shepherd, the "Way, the Truth and the Light," the Redeemer, the Savior, the Messiah.
  • Mithra is omniscient, as he "hears all, sees all, knows all: none can deceive him."
  • He was identified with both the Lion and the Lamb.
  • His sacred day was Sunday, "the Lord's Day," hundreds of years before the appearance of Christ.
  • His religion had a eucharist or "Lord's Supper."
  • Mithra "sets his marks on the foreheads of his soldiers."
  • Mithraism emphasized baptism.

And Gerald Berry is whom?

 

[shunyadragon]

And Gerald Berry is whom?

The described similarities are factual and can be from many sources, regardless of whether it be Gerald Berry or whomever. He wrote the book referenced. There are over twenty sources cited in the article, which is more extensive than what I cited.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

The described similarities are factual and can be from many sources, regardless of whether it Gerald Berry or whomever.

If you say so, but now I'm skeptical.

 

[shunyadragon]

If you say so, but now I'm skeptical.

It is not me that says so, it is the more than twenty sources cited in the reference. The reference is much longer than I cited.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

It is not me that says so, it is the more than twenty sources cited in the reference. The reference is much longer than I cited.

There seems to be a whole lot of speculaten goin on here. Since there are very few footnotes to accompany the article, particularly the more speculative aspect of the presentation, I'm having trouble having any desire to pursue this article. Especially since one of the first things offered is that Miyhra was not born of a rock and my question about it goes unanswered.

 

[Augustus]

You are living in denial, these are factual parallels between Mithraism and Christianity, just as you are in denial

I'm not a Christian. I don't care what it's influences were. It's just unevidenced BS which really only makes sense if combined with Jesus mythicism.

Have you got any evidence outside of some internet loon? Academic sources perhaps? Journals? Monographs published by credible publishers?

A lot of this is a mashup of different traditions, Indian, Persian and Roman and not a very accurate one at that. The Roman Mithras traditions may not even predate Christianity. A lot of supplementary info appears in the 19th C,. 18th/19th C are where a lot of bad history developed (evil Christianity bringing about the Dark Ages, etc.) as it was used to support atheistic/deistic ideologies.

• Mithra was born on December 25th of the virgin Anahita. False, from rock. No d.o.b.
• The babe was wrapped in swaddling clothes, placed in a manger and attended by shepherds. False, appears to be born fully formed
• He was considered a great traveling teacher and master. Evidence?
• He had 12 companions or "disciples." False, although some link to 12 signs of Zodiac
• He performed miracles. Some evidence of miraculously producing water from rock.
• As the "great bull of the Sun," Mithra sacrificed himself for world peace. false, he killed a bull who was not him
• He ascended to heaven. Evidence?
• Mithra was viewed as the Good Shepherd, the "Way, the Truth and the Light," the Redeemer, the Savior, the Messiah. Evidence?
• Mithra is omniscient, as he "hears all, sees all, knows all: none can deceive him." Evidence?
• He was identified with both the Lion and the Lamb. Evidence?
• His sacred day was Sunday, "the Lord's Day," hundreds of years before the appearance of Christ. Evidence?
• His religion had a eucharist or "Lord's Supper." It had a feast
• Mithra "sets his marks on the foreheads of his soldiers." Possibly
• Mithraism emphasized baptism. Possibly had an initiation involving water

just as you are in denial with the similaries between Mary and Roman Goddesses

That post contained the phrase: "While this is not sufficient as an argument against specific religious influence"

 

[shunyadragon]

I'm not a Christian. I don't care what it's influences were. It's just unevidenced BS which really only makes sense if combined with Jesus mythicism.

Have you got any evidence outside of some internet loon? Academic sources perhaps? Journals? Monographs published by credible publishers?

A lot of this is a mashup of different traditions, Indian, Persian and Roman and not a very accurate one at that. The Roman Mithras traditions may not even predate Christianity. A lot of supplementary info appears in the 19th C,. 18th/19th C are where a lot of bad history developed (evil Christianity bringing about the Dark Ages, etc.) as it was used to support atheistic/deistic ideologies.

• Mithra was born on December 25th of the virgin Anahita. False, from rock. No d.o.b.
• The babe was wrapped in swaddling clothes, placed in a manger and attended by shepherds. False, appears to be born fully formed
• He was considered a great traveling teacher and master. Evidence?
• He had 12 companions or "disciples." False, although some link to 12 signs of Zodiac
• He performed miracles. Some evidence of miraculously producing water from rock.
• As the "great bull of the Sun," Mithra sacrificed himself for world peace. false, he killed a bull who was not him
• He ascended to heaven. Evidence?
• Mithra was viewed as the Good Shepherd, the "Way, the Truth and the Light," the Redeemer, the Savior, the Messiah. Evidence?
• Mithra is omniscient, as he "hears all, sees all, knows all: none can deceive him." Evidence?
• He was identified with both the Lion and the Lamb. Evidence?
• His sacred day was Sunday, "the Lord's Day," hundreds of years before the appearance of Christ. Evidence?
• His religion had a eucharist or "Lord's Supper." It had a feast
• Mithra "sets his marks on the foreheads of his soldiers." Possibly
• Mithraism emphasized baptism. Possibly had an initiation involving water

That post contained the phrase: "While this is not sufficient as an argument against specific religious influence"

Your manner is rude and aggressive, and very very biased regardless of your religious belief, which is not clear.
Many most definitely predate Christianity in the Persian religious beliefs as clearly referenced in the dictionary of the Roman Church.

There are different stories concerning the birth of Mithra. A dominant one is he was of virgin birth, and December 25, or previously the winter solstice was his birth day based on the Persian version of the Sun God Mithra. The Roman variously celebrated versions of the Sun God born on the Winter Solstice later codified as December 25.