Paul & Mitraism

[shunyadragon]

There seems to be a whole lot of speculaten [sp?] goin on here. Since there are very few footnotes to accompany the article, particularly the more speculative aspect of the presentation, I'm having trouble having any desire to pursue this article. Especially since one of the first things offered is that Miyhra was not born of a rock and my question about it goes unanswered.

There is indeed a lot of speculation concerning the origins of Christina mythology that is not of Jewish origin.

There are different myths concerning the Mithra legend. One is he was born a virgin on the Winter Solstice in the version inherited from the Persian beliefs. The winter solstice was celebrated in different pagan religions of Rome as the birth date of the 'Sun God,' and Mithra was considered a Sun God.

 

[pearl]

Most of that is made up nonsense. There isn't any actual evidence for it.

Even the online encyclopedia New Advent, obviously tilted, acknowledges the existence of Mithraism and its similarity with Christianity.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10402a.htm

 

[shunyadragon]

I'm not a Christian. I don't care what it's influences were. It's just unevidenced BS which really only makes sense if combined with Jesus mythicism.

Have you got any evidence outside of some internet loon? Academic sources perhaps? Journals? Monographs published by credible publishers?

A lot of this is a mashup of different traditions, Indian, Persian and Roman and not a very accurate one at that. The Roman Mithras traditions may not even predate Christianity. A lot of supplementary info appears in the 19th C,. 18th/19th C are where a lot of bad history developed (evil Christianity bringing about the Dark Ages, etc.) as it was used to support atheistic/deistic ideologies.

• Mithra was born on December 25th of the virgin Anahita. False, from rock. No d.o.b.
• The babe was wrapped in swaddling clothes, placed in a manger and attended by shepherds. False, appears to be born fully formed
• He was considered a great traveling teacher and master. Evidence?
• He had 12 companions or "disciples." False, although some link to 12 signs of Zodiac
• He performed miracles. Some evidence of miraculously producing water from rock.
• As the "great bull of the Sun," Mithra sacrificed himself for world peace. false, he killed a bull who was not him
• He ascended to heaven. Evidence?
• Mithra was viewed as the Good Shepherd, the "Way, the Truth and the Light," the Redeemer, the Savior, the Messiah. Evidence?
• Mithra is omniscient, as he "hears all, sees all, knows all: none can deceive him." Evidence?
• He was identified with both the Lion and the Lamb. Evidence?
• His sacred day was Sunday, "the Lord's Day," hundreds of years before the appearance of Christ. Evidence?
• His religion had a eucharist or "Lord's Supper." It had a feast
• Mithra "sets his marks on the foreheads of his soldiers." Possibly
• Mithraism emphasized baptism. Possibly had an initiation involving water

That post contained the phrase: "While this is not sufficient as an argument against specific religious influence"

Christianity and scripture is indeed a mashup of ancient myths and traditions from Canaanite/Ugarit, Babylonian, Persian, Greek and Roman.

Most of the Mythra legends have their roots in older myths than Christianity, as referenced in the The Roman Church online dictionary.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Your manner is rude and aggressive, and very very biased regardless of your religious belief, which is not clear.
Many most definitely predate Christianity in the Persian religious beliefs as clearly referenced in the dictionary of the Roman Church.

There are different stories concerning the birth of Mithra. A dominant one is he was of virgin birth, and December 25, or previously the winter solstice was his birth day based on the Persian version of the Sun God Mithra. The Roman variously celebrated versions of the Sun God born on the Winter Solstice later codified as December 25.

If the prevailing thought is he was virgin born then why do most sources I reference say otherwise?

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Even the online encyclopedia New Advent, obviously tilted, acknowledges the existence of Mithraism and its similarity with Christianity.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10402a.htm

Your link right off the bat mentions the "supposed" link to Christianity.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Can one of you mods correct the misspelling of "Mythriasm" in the title so I dunna look so stoopit?

 

[Augustus]

Your manner is rude and aggressive, and very very biased regardless of your religious belief, which is not clear.

I apologise, but it's not exactly conducive to goodwill to call someone "in denial" and "very very biased" because they don't take the word of 'Archya S' off the internet at face value even though it goes against what academic historians say on the subject.

There are different stories concerning the birth of Mithra. A dominant one is he was of virgin birth, and December 25, or previously the winter solstice was his birth day based on the Persian version of the Sun God Mithra. The Roman variously celebrated versions of the Sun God born on the Winter Solstice later codified as December 25.

Which might well evidence that they are not exactly the same god seeing as the Roman Mithras was born from rock.

Also the winter solstice is not on Dec 25, and Dec 25th as a dating for Christmas comes significantly later than Paul. So it would mean Paul copied Mithraism, then people forgot about it, then later people also chose to copy Mithraism.

Many most definitely predate Christianity in the Persian religious beliefs as clearly referenced in the dictionary of the Roman Church.

There is no real evidence of Roman Mithraism predating Christianity though. For example:

I propose to locate Mithraism's founding group among the dependants, military and civilian, of the dynasty of Commagene as it made the transition from client rulers to Roman aristocrats.3 The kingdom of Commagene on the Empire's eastern marches with Parthia and Armenia figures, more or less prominently, in all accounts of the transmission of Mithras worship, because the monuments and texts of Antiochus I, its mid-first-century B.C. ruler and the founder of a remarkable syncretistic Greco-Iranian royal cult, accord to Mithras a prominent place in the newly defined pantheon.37 It is, however, on the ending of the kingdom more than a century later that I wish to focus.38 The actual demise occurred in A.D. 72 with the deposition of the long-reigning Antiochus IV,

The Mysteries of Mithras: A New Account of Their Genesis Roger Beck
The Journal of Roman Studies, Vol. 88 (1998), pp. 115-128

 

[Fool]

This relationship came up in another thread. I'm ignorant of this concern. No one cared to explain much with clarity. Maybe I can get some this way.

What is the relationship between the theology of Paul and this little known mystery religion?

mystery religions have to do with mysticism. if one doesn't get caught up in the form, then one becomes one with the ultimate reality, or deity of that religion. like jesus, i and the father are one, or unio mystica.


Mysticism - Wikipedia

the transubstantiation is the assimilation of the hidden manna, our daily bread in christianity to become that which is in revelation 21. its called the language of the birds in some circles, or the enochian language in others.

food for thought......


so the raising of consciousness leads to self-actualization, self-realization that tat tvam asi.
John 3:14
Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up,


the plays are enacted by a hero with a 1000 faces. do not become fixated upon the actors/actresses. they are illusory, temporal, irrelevant, maya. see the self for what it really is as itself acts out the age old actions. lila,

be the magician

the more things changes, the more forms change, the more things seem to remain the same in action.


to be or not to be

know thyself as that ahmi yat ahmi

we can see it's culmination here: he knows that all is His greatness

Two birds, beautiful of wings, close companions, cling to one common tree: of the two one eats the sweet fruit of that tree; the other eats not but watches his companion. The self is the bird that sits immersed on the common tree; but because he is not lord he is bewildered and has sorrow. But when he sees that other who is the Lord and the beloved, he knows that all is His greatness and his sorrow passes away from him. When, a seer, he sees the Golden-hued, the maker, the Lord, the Spirit who is the source of Brahman, then he becomes the knower and shakes from his wings sin and virtue; pure of all stains he reaches the supreme identity.

 

[Faithofchristian]

This relationship came up in another thread. I'm ignorant of this concern. No one cared to explain much with clarity. Maybe I can get some this way.

What is the relationship between the theology of Paul and this little known mystery religion?

First, what do you mean by, The theology of Paul's mystery religion ?

 

[Fool]

Can one of you mods correct the misspelling of "Mythriasm" in the title so I dunna look so stoopit?

since you are the creator of the thread, you can change the title. edit the original, 1st post. there is an option at the top of the pane called "Thread Tools". It has two, or three options, one is to edit the "Thread Title".

 

[sandy whitelinger]

First, what do you mean by, The theology of Paul's mystery religion ?

You read it wrong. Go back to understand.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

since you are the creator of the thread, you can change the title. edit the original, 1st post. there is an option at the top of the pane called "Thread Tools". It has two, or three options, one is to edit the "Thread Title".

Can't do it on my phone.

 

[pearl]

Your link right off the bat mentions the "supposed" link to Christianity.

A similarity between Mithra and Christ struck even early observers, such as Justin, Tertullian, and other Fathers, and in recent times has been urged to prove that Christianity is but an adaptation of Mithraism, or at most the outcome of the same religious ideas and aspirations (e.g. Robertson, "Pagan Christs", 1903). Against this erroneous and unscientific procedure, which is not endorsed by the greatest living authority on Mithraism, the following considerations must be brought forward.

 

[shunyadragon]

If the prevailing thought is he was virgin born then why do most sources I reference say otherwise?

Borrowing and synchronistic blending of religions is the history of religion in the Middle East and Rome, and yes they are all different in one way or another.
Most sources do not say otherwise. There are different myths involved and different Gods, as with Jesus there were differing mythologies as in the gospels not accepted as Canon.

The myth of being born from a rock comes from Mithric iconography describing Mithra be born in a cave. December 25 was not only used by some as the birthday of Mithra. It was the birthday of the Sun God of various names such as:

From: http://www.religioustolerance.org/xmas_sel.htm
" Roman Pagan Religion: Attis was a son of the virgin Nana. His birth was celebrated on DEC-25. He was sacrificed as an adult in order to bring salvation to mankind. He died about MAR-25, after being crucified on a tree, and descended for three days into the underworld. On Sunday, he arose, as the solar deity for the new season. His followers tied an image of Attis to a tree on "Black Friday," and carried him in a procession to the temple. ["Black Friday" has a very different meaning today.] His body was symbolically eaten by his followers in the form of bread. Worship of Attis began in Rome circa 200 BCE."

 

[shunyadragon]

Your link right off the bat mentions the "supposed" link to Christianity.

So? It describes the similarities I have cited, and of course it will describe them as "supposed," because it is a Roman Church site.

 

[shunyadragon]

I apologise, but it's not exactly conducive to goodwill to call someone "in denial" and "very very biased" because they don't take the word of 'Archya S' off the internet at face value even though it goes against what academic historians say on the subject.



Which might well evidence that they are not exactly the same god seeing as the Roman Mithras was born from rock.

Also the winter solstice is not on Dec 25, and Dec 25th as a dating for Christmas comes significantly later than Paul. So it would mean Paul copied Mithraism, then people forgot about it, then later people also chose to copy Mithraism.



There is no real evidence of Roman Mithraism predating Christianity though. For example:

I propose to locate Mithraism's founding group among the dependants, military and civilian, of the dynasty of Commagene as it made the transition from client rulers to Roman aristocrats.3 The kingdom of Commagene on the Empire's eastern marches with Parthia and Armenia figures, more or less prominently, in all accounts of the transmission of Mithras worship, because the monuments and texts of Antiochus I, its mid-first-century B.C. ruler and the founder of a remarkable syncretistic Greco-Iranian royal cult, accord to Mithras a prominent place in the newly defined pantheon.37 It is, however, on the ending of the kingdom more than a century later that I wish to focus.38 The actual demise occurred in A.D. 72 with the deposition of the long-reigning Antiochus IV,

The Mysteries of Mithras: A New Account of Their Genesis Roger Beck
The Journal of Roman Studies, Vol. 88 (1998), pp. 115-128

Your aggressive behavior came in on your first response.

Example of the problem of your continuing aggressive approach by miss citing me and the sources. No one nor I proposed Paul "copied" Mithraism. It is a fact the the religions of the Middle East and Rome evolved synchronistically going back to Canaanite/Ugarit, Babylonian and Persian religions. Christianity evolved through Paul and beyond. The Hellenist/Roman birthday of Jesus and other Christian holidays do indeed emulate Roman religious holidays and rituals. Actually Paul's philosophy was Hellenist Roman, and for example his emphasis on an incarnate God and the Trinity, which are not Jewish beliefs, and other influence concerning Logos.

 

[socharlie]

Nothing?

Mithraism just another mystery religion, it has some cultural hues but it is a mystery religion.
Moses brought one from Egypt. Common denominator is initiation into mysteries and development of abilities to enter Spirit world. That is something Gnostic Paul was involved in. Matthew gives idea where the foundations of Christianity come from Egypt, Persia and essentially from the first shaman -shaman serve his/her people by entering spirit world to intercede for his/her people and being a guide in the afterlife.


.

 

[socharlie]

Mithraism just another mystery religion, it has some cultural hues but it is a mystery religion.
Moses brought one from Egypt. Common denominator is initiation into mysteries and development of abilities to enter Spirit world. That is something Gnostic Paul was involved in. Matthew gives idea where the foundations of Christianity come from Egypt, Persia and essentially from the first shaman -shaman serve his/her people by entering spirit world to intercede for his/her people and being a guide in the afterlife.


.

what Paul explains, is Christ Jesus and Agape state of enlightenment - that makes Christianity the next step of evolved consciousness.

 

[shunyadragon]

Mithraism just another mystery religion, it has some cultural hues but it is a mystery religion.

Mythraism is not simply a 'mystery religion. Actually early Christianity also had elements of being a mystery religion, which continues through history in the various secret societies. Mythraism has a long history going back to Persia and likely Vedic traditions of India.

Moses brought one from Egypt. Common denominator is initiation into mysteries and development of abilities to enter Spirit world.

Separate topic involving Moses, which I realize that your view of scripture is more literal and accurate than mine.

That is something Gnostic Paul was involved in. Matthew gives idea where the foundations of Christianity come from Egypt, Persia and essentially from the first shaman -shaman serve his/her people by entering spirit world to intercede for his/her people and being a guide in the afterlife.

This involves more specific beliefs in the mystic origins of Christinaity, which is a yes/no to me,

 

[Augustus]

Your aggressive behavior came in on your first response.

"Most of that is made up nonsense. There isn't any actual evidence for it."

I think you are being a little oversensitive, Achraya S has been well known as a purveyor of made up nonsense since the Zeitgeist conspiracy theory movie. She was a purveyor of made up nonsense before this, just less well known

You may be misinterpreting my lack of respect for her as a source as aggression towards you.

Example of the problem of your continuing aggressive approach by miss citing me and the sources. No one nor I proposed Paul "copied" Mithraism.

It is the topic of the thread, and the source you cited claims that Christianity copied Mithraism, and you quoted a post that said "What is the relationship between the theology of Paul and this little known mystery religion?" so can you see how someone might make an honest mistake and jump to that conclusion that you were referring to Paul without being 'aggressive'?

The Hellenist/Roman birthday of Jesus and other Christian holidays do indeed emulate Roman religious holidays and rituals. Actually Paul's philosophy was Hellenist Roman, and for example his emphasis on an incarnate God and the Trinity, which are not Jewish beliefs, and other influence concerning Logos.

The evidence for 'borrowing' Dec 25th is far from conclusive. I don't personally agree with the Mithras or Sol Invictus explanation, but others do. There is academic support for both perspectives.

As for Philo, Hellenic influences I agree and even said so earlier in this thread and linked to an article. I also noted that similarities between religions may result from them appearing in a common cultural context rather than relating to copying.

What we disagree on is whether or not one should have respect for Achraya S as a source of unbiased, factually based information and you certainly are not going to change my mind on that one.