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Paul & Mitraism

fallingblood

Agnostic Theist
This relationship came up in another thread. I'm ignorant of this concern. No one cared to explain much with clarity. Maybe I can get some this way.

What is the relationship between the theology of Paul and this little known mystery religion?
There is no relationship. The mystery religion of Mithraism was created after Paul died. There was an earlier belief in Mithra, which was Persian, and was very different from the later mystery religion. But the two often get confused. In that confusion, a lot of things are made up (which isn't helped by much later works conflating the two, and then adding in a lot of BS to the entire thing, that really isn't based on any evidence).

As for the whole eucharist thing, that has nothing to do with Mithraism, but Paul adopts it from the Jesus movement.

First it is not little known. It was a common belief even among Roman centurions. The concern are the parallels between Mithraism and Christianity. Mithraism has a long history as Mitra in Hindu mythology, and Mithra in Persian mythology.Mithra was described as the Sun God, and the holiday for Mithra was Christmas.
No. Mithra changed drastically from the Hindu idea, to the Persian idea and to the Roman idea. You can't conflate all of them. There really is no connection between the Persian worship of Mithra and Roman Mithraism, besides in name, and a bit of astrological lore. The idea that Jesus and Mithra had a holiday around Christmas really is nothing, as Jesus is never said to be born at that time, and the move to celebrate his birth at the time was no secret; it was to help assimilate others into the religion as most major religions had a festival around that time. Its a none point.
From: Mithra the Pagan Christ | Mithraism and Christianity | Mithras the Sun God
"Both Mithras and Christ were described variously as 'the Way,' 'the Truth,' 'the Light,' 'the Life,' 'the Word,' 'the Son of God,' 'the Good Shepherd.' The Christian litany to Jesus could easily be an allegorical litany to the sun-god. Mithras is often represented as carrying a lamb on his shoulders, just as Jesus is. Midnight services were found in both religions. The virgin mother...was easily merged with the virgin mother Mary. Petra, the sacred rock of Mithraism, became Peter, the foundation of the Christian Church."
Just terrible source. Even the major names in the Jesus myth camp dismiss this author. First, Mithras is never described in those ways. He had none of those titles. They appear no where in the work associated with Mithras. He simply isn't described in that way.

The Christian litany idea really is nonsensical. If one tried, they could adapt a litany in regards to Trump to the sun-god. One could do that same with Augustus. It really shows nothing besides one is willing to squint at it hard enough.

As for the lamb on his shoulders, not really. Mithra wasn't associated with being a shepherd, or a lamb at all. He is associated with the lion, but that was because he was associated with the constellation Leo.

I see nothing about midnight services being with Mithra, and would that matter? Businesses open at 8 am., does that mean they are all the same? Not really. Later services would have been a way to hide.

The virgin part, no. Mithra did not have a virgin mother. He wasn't born of a virgin at all. Mithra was born a full grown man, from a rock. It was likely a carry over from Perseus, who had a similar birth.

Peter also wasn't a sacred rock. He was nicknamed the rock, because he name meant that. It was a common name. Peter also wasn't the foundation of the religion. James, the brother of Jesus, played a more major role, having taken over the religion once Jesus died.
Gerald Berry, Religions of the World

"Mithra or Mitra is...worshipped as Itu (Mitra-Mitu-Itu) in every house of the Hindus in India. Itu (derivative of Mitu or Mitra) is considered as the Vegetation-deity. This Mithra or Mitra (Sun-God) is believed to be a Mediator between God and man, between the Sky and the Earth. It is said that Mithra or [the] Sun took birth in the Cave on December 25th. It is also the belief of the Christian world that Mithra or the Sun-God was born of [a] Virgin. He travelled far and wide. He has twelve satellites, which are taken as the Sun's disciples.... [The Sun's] great festivals are observed in the Winter Solstice and the Vernal Equinox—Christmas and Easter. His symbol is the Lamb...."
First, the Hindu idea of Mithra and the Roman idea was different. So we can ignore that other parts. Even the idea of being a mediator is from the Zoroastrianism belief, and not the Roman idea. More so, he wasn't even a mediator between God and man in the Persian version. He was a mediator between Zoroaster's good and evil gods.

I addressed the non-issue of December 25th (Jesus wasn't said to be born then, it was just when his birth was later celebrated). There was no virgin. There was no mother. He was born out of solid rock, and left a cave behind (he wasn't born in a cave, and neither was Jesus, so that is silly anyway). And again, Mithra was born fully grown. So huge different.

I'm not sure about the traveling far and wide. Its pretty vague, and many people traveled far and wide. But for the 12 satellites, nope. Mithra in the Persian idea have 1 follower, in the Roman, he had two companions. They may represent the sunrise and sunset, but weren't taken as disciples.

Mithra is not depicted by the lamb. He's depicted by the lion. Or at least once was. The Christmas thing was explained. For Easter, no. There is a festival associated with the spring equinox, but it is just one of 4 similar festivals, one of each season. And while Easter may occur in the spring, it is not associated with the spring equinox.
Swami Prajnanananda, Christ the Saviour and Christ Myth

Mithra has the following in common with the Jesus character:




    • The babe was wrapped in swaddling clothes, placed in a manger and attended by shepherds.
    • He was considered a great traveling teacher and master.
    • He performed miracles.
    • As the "great bull of the Sun," Mithra sacrificed himself for world peace
    • He ascended to heaven.
    • Mithra is omniscient, as he "hears all, sees all, knows all: none can deceive him."
    • He was identified with both the Lion and the Lamb.
    • His sacred day was Sunday, "the Lord's Day," hundreds of years before the appearance of Christ.
    • His religion had a eucharist or "Lord's Supper."
    • Mithra "sets his marks on the foreheads of his soldiers."
    • Mithraism emphasized baptism.
I'm only going to address the ones I haven't. Mithra was not placed in a manger. He was born a fully grown adult. He was also born before men were created. So there's that. He is never called a teacher or master. It never appears in the literature.

I will give you the miracles one. But then again, Augustus is said to have performed miracles. It was something nearly every religious leader was said to have done.

Mithra didn't sacrifice himself. He also wasn't the great bull of the Sun. Mithra killed the bull. And it wasn't for world peace. He doesn't even die.

Mithra doesn't ascend to heaven. The gods with him, who are looking over humanity, ascend.

I can't find anything about him hearing all. No where in the literature is he said to be omniscient. More so, neither is Jesus. So the point makes no sense.

He is not associated with the lamb, but with the lion. But many were.

He did have Sunday. But not hundreds of years earlier. In the Persian version, there is nothing about Sunday being sat aside. It isn't until the Roman version that Sunday is set aside, and the Roman version did occur until after Jesus.

To the Lord's supper, this is difficult. There is one reference to the literature that is often used. However, it is Zarathustra who is speaking, not Mithra. This comes from a medieval text, so its far too late. Now, there is some sort of meal shared by initiates, but it consisted of bread, wine, meat, and water. Its a common fellowship meal, that was used by many religious groups. It doesn't have the same observance as the Lord's Supper.

For the marks on the soldiers head. The only reference we have to that is by Tertullian, and he isn't fully certain about that. And there was no emphasis on baptism. There is nothing in the literature.

So, to sum up, the three sources you have are full of bunk. Much of it is simply made up, is not found in the scholarship or literature on the subject, and is completely wrong.
 

sandy whitelinger

Veteran Member
There is no relationship. The mystery religion of Mithraism was created after Paul died. There was an earlier belief in Mithra, which was Persian, and was very different from the later mystery religion. But the two often get confused. In that confusion, a lot of things are made up (which isn't helped by much later works conflating the two, and then adding in a lot of BS to the entire thing, that really isn't based on any evidence).

As for the whole eucharist thing, that has nothing to do with Mithraism, but Paul adopts it from the Jesus movement.

No. Mithra changed drastically from the Hindu idea, to the Persian idea and to the Roman idea. You can't conflate all of them. There really is no connection between the Persian worship of Mithra and Roman Mithraism, besides in name, and a bit of astrological lore. The idea that Jesus and Mithra had a holiday around Christmas really is nothing, as Jesus is never said to be born at that time, and the move to celebrate his birth at the time was no secret; it was to help assimilate others into the religion as most major religions had a festival around that time. Its a none point.
Just terrible source. Even the major names in the Jesus myth camp dismiss this author. First, Mithras is never described in those ways. He had none of those titles. They appear no where in the work associated with Mithras. He simply isn't described in that way.

The Christian litany idea really is nonsensical. If one tried, they could adapt a litany in regards to Trump to the sun-god. One could do that same with Augustus. It really shows nothing besides one is willing to squint at it hard enough.

As for the lamb on his shoulders, not really. Mithra wasn't associated with being a shepherd, or a lamb at all. He is associated with the lion, but that was because he was associated with the constellation Leo.

I see nothing about midnight services being with Mithra, and would that matter? Businesses open at 8 am., does that mean they are all the same? Not really. Later services would have been a way to hide.

The virgin part, no. Mithra did not have a virgin mother. He wasn't born of a virgin at all. Mithra was born a full grown man, from a rock. It was likely a carry over from Perseus, who had a similar birth.

Peter also wasn't a sacred rock. He was nicknamed the rock, because he name meant that. It was a common name. Peter also wasn't the foundation of the religion. James, the brother of Jesus, played a more major role, having taken over the religion once Jesus died.
First, the Hindu idea of Mithra and the Roman idea was different. So we can ignore that other parts. Even the idea of being a mediator is from the Zoroastrianism belief, and not the Roman idea. More so, he wasn't even a mediator between God and man in the Persian version. He was a mediator between Zoroaster's good and evil gods.

I addressed the non-issue of December 25th (Jesus wasn't said to be born then, it was just when his birth was later celebrated). There was no virgin. There was no mother. He was born out of solid rock, and left a cave behind (he wasn't born in a cave, and neither was Jesus, so that is silly anyway). And again, Mithra was born fully grown. So huge different.

I'm not sure about the traveling far and wide. Its pretty vague, and many people traveled far and wide. But for the 12 satellites, nope. Mithra in the Persian idea have 1 follower, in the Roman, he had two companions. They may represent the sunrise and sunset, but weren't taken as disciples.

Mithra is not depicted by the lamb. He's depicted by the lion. Or at least once was. The Christmas thing was explained. For Easter, no. There is a festival associated with the spring equinox, but it is just one of 4 similar festivals, one of each season. And while Easter may occur in the spring, it is not associated with the spring equinox.
I'm only going to address the ones I haven't. Mithra was not placed in a manger. He was born a fully grown adult. He was also born before men were created. So there's that. He is never called a teacher or master. It never appears in the literature.

I will give you the miracles one. But then again, Augustus is said to have performed miracles. It was something nearly every religious leader was said to have done.

Mithra didn't sacrifice himself. He also wasn't the great bull of the Sun. Mithra killed the bull. And it wasn't for world peace. He doesn't even die.

Mithra doesn't ascend to heaven. The gods with him, who are looking over humanity, ascend.

I can't find anything about him hearing all. No where in the literature is he said to be omniscient. More so, neither is Jesus. So the point makes no sense.

He is not associated with the lamb, but with the lion. But many were.

He did have Sunday. But not hundreds of years earlier. In the Persian version, there is nothing about Sunday being sat aside. It isn't until the Roman version that Sunday is set aside, and the Roman version did occur until after Jesus.

To the Lord's supper, this is difficult. There is one reference to the literature that is often used. However, it is Zarathustra who is speaking, not Mithra. This comes from a medieval text, so its far too late. Now, there is some sort of meal shared by initiates, but it consisted of bread, wine, meat, and water. Its a common fellowship meal, that was used by many religious groups. It doesn't have the same observance as the Lord's Supper.

For the marks on the soldiers head. The only reference we have to that is by Tertullian, and he isn't fully certain about that. And there was no emphasis on baptism. There is nothing in the literature.

So, to sum up, the three sources you have are full of bunk. Much of it is simply made up, is not found in the scholarship or literature on the subject, and is completely wrong.
You obviously had more time to debunk every aspect than I. I'm tending to follow your reasoning as most accurate in view of what's been offered. Thank you.

And once again, as in my other thread, history has taken a greater preeminence over theology.
 

Buddha Dharma

Dharma Practitioner
The sense of mystery religion I intended was more of we don't know much about it rather than a belief in mysteries.

That isn't really the sense mystery religions viewed mysteries in. The mysteries are rites they performed to bring about union with the divine- or the divine embodied in the highest form.

Examples here are Osiris, king of Egypt and Dionysus. Mysteries were performed to join oneself to these deities, because it is believed that having once been human- they carried the power of transcending humanity.

Plutarch says in Osiris and Isis, that the Egyptians revered the two for having brought law to the land of Egypt as a concept- and for teaching them the planting of grains.

Osiris could be Menes/Narmer deified. The first pharaoh, who unified Upper and Lower Egypt into one kingdom on the brink of Akkadian invasion.

I picked up a hint from the previous thread that Paul my have instituted sacraments due to some percieved influence of Mithraism.

I don't know how developed Roman Mithraism was in Paul's time, and that's a matter of scholastic dispute among thinkers. Rome brought Mithraism in from Persia. Quite possibly because there were Zoroastrians on the fringes of the Roman Empire's border with the Persian Empire.

Mithra was thought to be the highest 'Amesha Spenta' in Zoroastrianism. That is- the highest angelic being created by Ahura Mazda. He appears leading the other spirits in the Zend Avesta- a compendium of Zoroastrian scriptures that not all of them accept as revealed.

Zoroastrianism underwent a transformation from what appears to have been a purely monotheistic religion, into a dualistic one that centers around cosmic good versus cosmic evil. The Gathas, commonly believed to be the oldest Zoroastrian scripture, and the very hymns of Zoroaster himself- paint the religion as completely monotheistic. There is no mention of Ahriman/Angra Mainyu.

I figured I'd include a little background knowledge on Zoroastrianism, for your interest.

It is typically thought the Romans took Mithra from the Zoroastrians, though they may have taken him from the Orphist Phanes. Phanes is a lot more like Jesus than the Persian Mithra. The very concept of Phanes is the potentiality of creation. When things began to exist- what began to exist is what Phanes is. See also Isvara in Vedanta, as another possible connection.

It is impossible to say rather Christianity drew more on Roman Mithraism, or Roman Mithraism on it and many other religions.

I think it is Jesus and the apostles thought to have instituted the sacraments though? Not Paul. Paul seems to have to a degree rejected sacramental theology. His statement that he came not to baptize, for example.
 

Buddha Dharma

Dharma Practitioner
We here is the wealth of information about Mithraism these summary judgements of Paul's plagiarism are based?

Actually, I'd like to propose to you- not the idea that Paul was influenced by Mithraism, but that he was a gnostic. I can cite plenty of passages in his letters as evidence for this.

Paul only believed in a glorified Jesus, not known after the flesh. He believed this Jesus was crucified by the archons, the spiritual powers or demons that rule the earthly plane. The non-canonical text The Ascension of Isaiah may be where Paul drew such an idea.

Paul confirms this in statements like telling the Galatians they have 'seen Christ crucified before them'. He also believed he taught on revelation, and being predestined from his mother's womb. Isn't that curious for a man named Jesus, who presumably had teachings?

Paul believed not in a human Jesus, or if he did- it was at best someone that lived an unidentified amount of time in the past.

Paul taught ideas and concepts totally contrary to Jesus as the Nazarene Jews viewed him. The sects like the Ebionites and the Nazarenes.

Paul believed the Torah was revealed by angels, but the Gospel from God directly- as confirmed in Colossians. That too is a very gnostic idea. That a lesser power or reality sent humans the law.
 
What specifically, would be a stretch here?

Transsubstantiation and communion.

They had a ritualistic meal and perhaps an initiation ritual that involved water, that derives from Mithras' 'water miracle' (producing water from a rock).

Ritualistic meals are not exactly unprecedented, and also exist in Judaism. Baptism also has a Jewish precedent of sorts, so it's more likely that it reflects a modified Jewish ritual.

Agreed. It would be hard to prove.

Especially given the lack of evidence for Roman Mithraism even existing until the end of the 1st C. A lot of the source that propose 'copying' assume uncritically that Roman Mithraism is the same as Persian, despite clear differences between the 2.

Romans didn't like new superstitions, but respected ancient traditions, which is why they were more hostile to Christianity than Judaism.

Roman Mithraism might have been piggybacking a new religion on older traditions. A bit like you get Madonna style Kabbalah that's some new age thing passing itself off as ancient Jewish wisdom.
 

sandy whitelinger

Veteran Member
Actually, I'd like to propose to you- not the idea that Paul was influenced by Mithraism, but that he was a gnostic. I can cite plenty of passages in his letters as evidence for this.

Paul only believed in a glorified Jesus, not known after the flesh. He believed this Jesus was crucified by the archons, the spiritual powers or demons that rule the earthly plane. The non-canonical text The Ascension of Isaiah may be where Paul drew such an idea.

Paul confirms this in statements like telling the Galatians they have 'seen Christ crucified before them'. He also believed he taught on revelation, and being predestined from his mother's womb. Isn't that curious for a man named Jesus, who presumably had teachings?

Paul believed not in a human Jesus, or if he did- it was at best someone that lived an unidentified amount of time in the past.

Paul taught ideas and concepts totally contrary to Jesus as the Nazarene Jews viewed him. The sects like the Ebionites and the Nazarenes.

Paul believed the Torah was revealed by angels, but the Gospel from God directly- as confirmed in Colossians. That too is a very gnostic idea. That a lesser power or reality sent humans the law.
Do you feel like this is a proper interpretation of the whole of the Biblical message?
 

Proppa

New Member
You are living in denial, these are factual parallels between Mithraism and Christianity, just as you are in denial with the similaries between Mary and Roman Goddesses

Of course there are differences, because they are two different religions.
"factual" used in the loosest sense of the word. Drawing parallels like "born on December 25th" is such a lowbrow tactic used by people trying to discredit Christianity. The celebration of Christmas is rooted entirely in pagan culture.
 
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shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
"factual" used in the loosest sense of the word. Drawing parallels like "born on December 25th" is such a lowbrow tactic used by people trying to discredit Christianity. The celebration of Christmas is rooted entirely in pagan culture.

The date was set for the birthday of Jesus by Constantine based on his belief in "Soli Invicto Comiti" {Committed to Invincible God of the Sun) believe by Constantine and on all his coins. It is one part of Constantine's synchronizing and morphing Christianity into a Roman religion.
 
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The date was set for the birthday of Jesus by Constantine based on his belief in "Soli Invicto Comiti" {Committed to God of the Sun) believe by Constantine and on all his coins. It is one part of Constantine's synchronizing and morphing Christianity into a Roman religion.

All of these "Constantine changed Christianity into Paganism" stories are zombie myths that just won't die despite having no credibility among scholars. It's just bad history, which is why you shouldn't take people like "Acharya S" as reliable sources.

A scholarly perspective on this myth:

Among the more popular, but also less credible, claims that have subsequently been associated with HRT is the idea that the transformation of the Dies natalis solis invicti into Christmas was decreed by Constantine the Great as part of his general program of elevating Christianity to the main religion of the Roman empire, while fusing it with his own solar piety. Aside from the lack of source evidence, this thesis completely fails to account for the fact that Constantinople, the city inaugurated by Constantine himself in 330 as the new capital of his empire, had to wait until 380 for the actual introduction.

That studies emphasizing the "pagan" roots of Christmas have been fraught with a certain tendency towards confirmation bias, has recently been argued by Steven Hijmans, whose research into the iconography of the sun in Roman religion has paved the way for a critical re-evaluation of HRT. Using numismatic, archaeological, epigraphic and literary evidence from the second to fourth centuries, Hijmans is able to show that the idea of Christmas being preceded by a popular and important feast dedicated to the sun god is to a considerable extent founded on anachronisms and a view of Roman religion that rests on nineteenth-century constructs rather than hard facts. His skeptical and revisionist conclusions also demolishes the thesis that "Sol Invictus" was a new and distinct deity, whose cult was imported from the East in the third century and became the occasion of a major festival on December 25.


The Origins of the Christmas Date: Some Recent Trends in Historical Research
C. P. E. Nothaft
Church History, Vol. 81, No. 4 (DECEMBER 2012), pp. 903-911


The idea that Dec 25th was an important pagan date really has very little evidence to support it from what I can gather, and the idea that Constantine made a decision to appropriate Dec 25th is even more unsustainable as 25th Dec predates his rule (early 4th C at the latest, probably a fair bit before that but hard to determine accurately).
 
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shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
There is no relationship. The mystery religion of Mithraism was created after Paul died. There was an earlier belief in Mithra, which was Persian, and was very different from the later mystery religion. But the two often get confused. In that confusion, a lot of things are made up (which isn't helped by much later works conflating the two, and then adding in a lot of BS to the entire thing, that really isn't based on any evidence).

As for the whole eucharist thing, that has nothing to do with Mithraism, but Paul adopts it from the Jesus movement.

No. Mithra changed drastically from the Hindu idea, to the Persian idea and to the Roman idea. You can't conflate all of them. There really is no connection between the Persian worship of Mithra and Roman Mithraism, besides in name, and a bit of astrological lore. The idea that Jesus and Mithra had a holiday around Christmas really is nothing, as Jesus is never said to be born at that time, and the move to celebrate his birth at the time was no secret; it was to help assimilate others into the religion as most major religions had a festival around that time. Its a none point.
Just terrible source. Even the major names in the Jesus myth camp dismiss this author. First, Mithras is never described in those ways. He had none of those titles. They appear no where in the work associated with Mithras. He simply isn't described in that way.

The Christian litany idea really is nonsensical. If one tried, they could adapt a litany in regards to Trump to the sun-god. One could do that same with Augustus. It really shows nothing besides one is willing to squint at it hard enough.

As for the lamb on his shoulders, not really. Mithra wasn't associated with being a shepherd, or a lamb at all. He is associated with the lion, but that was because he was associated with the constellation Leo.

I see nothing about midnight services being with Mithra, and would that matter? Businesses open at 8 am., does that mean they are all the same? Not really. Later services would have been a way to hide.

The virgin part, no. Mithra did not have a virgin mother. He wasn't born of a virgin at all. Mithra was born a full grown man, from a rock. It was likely a carry over from Perseus, who had a similar birth.

Peter also wasn't a sacred rock. He was nicknamed the rock, because he name meant that. It was a common name. Peter also wasn't the foundation of the religion. James, the brother of Jesus, played a more major role, having taken over the religion once Jesus died.
First, the Hindu idea of Mithra and the Roman idea was different. So we can ignore that other parts. Even the idea of being a mediator is from the Zoroastrianism belief, and not the Roman idea. More so, he wasn't even a mediator between God and man in the Persian version. He was a mediator between Zoroaster's good and evil gods.

I addressed the non-issue of December 25th (Jesus wasn't said to be born then, it was just when his birth was later celebrated). There was no virgin. There was no mother. He was born out of solid rock, and left a cave behind (he wasn't born in a cave, and neither was Jesus, so that is silly anyway). And again, Mithra was born fully grown. So huge different.

I'm not sure about the traveling far and wide. Its pretty vague, and many people traveled far and wide. But for the 12 satellites, nope. Mithra in the Persian idea have 1 follower, in the Roman, he had two companions. They may represent the sunrise and sunset, but weren't taken as disciples.

Mithra is not depicted by the lamb. He's depicted by the lion. Or at least once was. The Christmas thing was explained. For Easter, no. There is a festival associated with the spring equinox, but it is just one of 4 similar festivals, one of each season. And while Easter may occur in the spring, it is not associated with the spring equinox.
I'm only going to address the ones I haven't. Mithra was not placed in a manger. He was born a fully grown adult. He was also born before men were created. So there's that. He is never called a teacher or master. It never appears in the literature.

I will give you the miracles one. But then again, Augustus is said to have performed miracles. It was something nearly every religious leader was said to have done.

Mithra didn't sacrifice himself. He also wasn't the great bull of the Sun. Mithra killed the bull. And it wasn't for world peace. He doesn't even die.

Mithra doesn't ascend to heaven. The gods with him, who are looking over humanity, ascend.

I can't find anything about him hearing all. No where in the literature is he said to be omniscient. More so, neither is Jesus. So the point makes no sense.

He is not associated with the lamb, but with the lion. But many were.

He did have Sunday. But not hundreds of years earlier. In the Persian version, there is nothing about Sunday being sat aside. It isn't until the Roman version that Sunday is set aside, and the Roman version did occur until after Jesus.

To the Lord's supper, this is difficult. There is one reference to the literature that is often used. However, it is Zarathustra who is speaking, not Mithra. This comes from a medieval text, so its far too late. Now, there is some sort of meal shared by initiates, but it consisted of bread, wine, meat, and water. Its a common fellowship meal, that was used by many religious groups. It doesn't have the same observance as the Lord's Supper.

For the marks on the soldiers head. The only reference we have to that is by Tertullian, and he isn't fully certain about that. And there was no emphasis on baptism. There is nothing in the literature.

So, to sum up, the three sources you have are full of bunk. Much of it is simply made up, is not found in the scholarship or literature on the subject, and is completely wrong.

To sum up I disagree with your sources and extreme bias toward justifying a Christian agenda,

First, There is sufficient documentation that the Gods the Sun were celebrated on the Winter Solstice in many cultures at least from Persia to Rome. The day was later changed to December 25th fro reasons of bad calendar math. Roman emperor Aurelian made the official pagan holiday before Constantine based on earlier Roman religious traditions celebrating the Winter Solstice were dedicated to several Roman Gods including Saturnalia.

Second, Sunday was indeed a pagan day of the Sun God, and Constantine changed the Christian sabbath to Sunday. It was the pagan sabbath before Jesus Christ.

Third, the inscriptions on all Constantine's coins 'Soli Invicto Comiti' are very real and indicate the devotion to the traditional pagan Sun God.

More to follow. I can see now, because of your agenda it will be unlikely we will agree.
 
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Proppa

New Member
The date was set for the birthday of Jesus by Constantine based on his belief in "Soli Invicto Comiti" {Committed to Invincible God of the Sun) believe by Constantine and on all his coins. It is one part of Constantine's synchronizing and morphing Christianity into a Roman religion.
Then I guess it's a good thing Christian theology doesn't rely on what Constantine mandated.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
The fact that you keep specifying shows me you know exactly what I'm talking about and that you are the one with the agenda.

Well, there is a reason I call it the Roman Church. It is because that I am not a believer, and do not consider it catholic. It is simply the church headed by the Bishop of Rome.
 

Buddha Dharma

Dharma Practitioner
Do you feel like the Gnostic view adds to and clarifies the message of how to understand God and his purpose throughout the whole Bible?

No because I'd favor a Jewish approach if the Bible was my book. As much as I admire some aspects of Christianity for similarities with Buddhism, I think the co-opting of the Jewish scriptures by Christians is almost theft. Especially since Christians twist the Hebrew Bible so much from it's clear meaning of monotheism and emphasis on good deeds.

I admire Judaism from a distance as a unique and beautiful tradition. I feel Christians often don't appreciate how beautiful Judaism is.

I think gnosticism explains Paul, but not Jesus. I reckon Jesus was a Jewish reformist.
 
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