• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Paul was not a Roman Citizen.

fallingblood

Agnostic Theist
Basically, I just want to put this topic to bed. It has popped up a number of times, and I think it's time to just debunk it thoroughly.

First, there are a couple of terms that need somewhat of a basic explanation:

Roman citizen: This is a special distinction. These were individuals who had special privileges. They were actually citizens of the Roman empire.

Roman: This usually refers to someone living in Rome. They were not necessarily citizens. This can be expanded to include anyone in the Roman Empire, but again, they are not citizens.

Gentile: Anyone who wasn't a Jew. These are the people that Paul brought his message to. Being a Gentile does not equal being a Roman. Not all Gentiles were Romans. So they are two distinct ideas; even though they seem to be confused.

The idea that Paul is a Roman citizen comes exclusively from Acts. If someone claims that Paul is a Roman citizen, they are necessarily relying on Acts. For instance, if we look at the Wikipedia entry on Paul: Paul the Apostle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia, one will see that they rely on exclusively Acts (they do cite the Encyclopedia Britannica; however, that also relies exclusively on Acts in this case). That is important as Paul himself never states that he is a Roman citizen, and no other source mentions it. The idea rests only on Acts.

The Anchor Bible Dictionary (volume 5, page 187), sums up the doubt about the Roman citizen status of Paul. It states that there is doubt about Paul's Roman citizenship, and it is because "there are questions prompted by the flogging and appeal to Caesar." Simply, Roman citizens were not subjected to flogging. That was part of their status. As L. Michael White states in From Jesus to Christianity, pg 154, "The hardships that Paul claims to have faced at the hands of Roman authorities are not typical for those possessing Roman citizenship. These glaring differences from the account in Acts have led many scholars to question whether Paul was indeed a full-fledged 'citizen" for Rome,..."

So here are what other scholars are saying:

Calvin J Roetzel, The Letters of Paul, pg 207 n30: "Parts of Luke's account give rise to considerable skepticism, however. Most especially the emphasis in Acts on Paul's Roman citizenship cannot be taken without question."

Again by L. Michael White, pg 148: "New Testament scholars have concluded that one must reconstruct Paul's career by starting with the letters themselves, and then correlate the events described in Acts when and where they seem to fit." This is actually a position that John Knox promoted and many scholars follow, such as E.P. Sanders. Donal Akenson, in Saint Saul clarifies this idea on 140: "in the absence of affirmative evidence of the accuracy of a statement in Acts concerning the life of Saint Saul, the assumption has to be that any given statement is not to be trusted (it is not necessarily wrong, just not to be trusted as historical evidence)." Basically then, since Paul does not mention being a Roman citizen, we can not trust Acts on this statement. This is the view that many scholars accept and that is growing in popularity.

Alan Segal, in Paul the Convert, states the same thing on pg 12: "we can be sure of Luke's portrayal of Paul only when Paul's own letter confirm them."

Paula Fredriksen makes a good point concerning this in From Jesus to Christ, pg 55: "If Acts did not exist and all we had were Paul's letters, we would have no reason to think of him as other than a Jew of the Diaspora..." She also mentions, on the same page, "what little biographical information Paul does give us seems to fatally compromise, if not contradict, what we have from Luke." Again, that is more reason to accept Paul or Acts.

Bart Ehrman, who usually follows the mainstream in his books, states in Peter, Paul and Mary, pg 108: "This [Acts mention of Paul being a Roman citizen] has struck some historians as highly unlikely. Paul himself never says anything of the sort, and in fact very few Jews were actually citizens of the empire. For one thing, being a citizen meant performing occasional sacrifices to the gods for the well-being of the state. Jews who didn't adhere to some kind of strict Judaism would probably have had few qualms about the matter. But a highly religious Jew such as Paul? It seems unlikely. Moreover, citizenship in this period was, for the most part, restricted to the elite. Paul, on the other hand, even though he was well educated, appears to have been strictly working class."

The first is from The First Paul by Marcus Borg and John Dominic Crossan. On page 68 they say:

"On the other hand, Paul himself never makes a single reference to that status and admits, in fact, that 'three times I was beaten by rods' (2 Cor 11:25)- a Roman punishment forbidden to be used on Roman citizens.... Paul was either not a Roman citizen or, if he were, he never used that privilege for his own advantage."

On page 67, because of that, they also say that "Paul himself never mentions that status and seems even to negate it."

So they acknowledge the possibility Paul was a Roman citizen, but it is unlikely and seems to be something of no import.

In the Search for Paul, by Crossan and Jonathan Reed, on page 5, the same sentiment is stated: "In any case, Paul himself never mentions that latter status [Roman citizenship], and, if his Roman beatings are any indication, he was never a Roman citizen."

Finally, again from Segal, pg 26: "all discussion of Paul's early life, especially with details gleaned from Luke, is bound to end in pure speculation."

To sum up. It appears that the consensus is that Acts is only reliable, when it comes to Paul, when it is supported by Pauline letters. Otherwise, it is nothing more than pure speculation. That means, the idea of Paul being a Roman citizen, is at best, pure speculation. And there are many reasons to doubt that he was a Roman citizen at all.

If, and this is a big if, Paul was a Roman citizen, it appears to be of no importance though. Again, Paul never mentions it, he isn't treated like a Roman citizen (as in he is beaten) and he appears to identify as Jewish. If he was a Roman citizen, it was only by birth, and something he apparently never shared or made use of. It is much more likely that he was never a Roman citizen though, and that Acts is incorrect here, as it often is when talking about Paul.
 

Vultar

Active Member
Was the point of that a proof that the bible is just a collection of made up stories, or that the Pauline letters are simply forgeries that didn't 100% correspond with the scriptures or both...
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
Was the point of that a proof that the bible is just a collection of made up stories, or that the Pauline letters are simply forgeries that didn't 100% correspond with the scriptures or both...
Stop embarrassing yourself. :slap:
 

CynthiaCypher

Well-Known Member
They had different classes of citizenship. Some had more rights and privileges than others. I think he was what we would call a legal resident or resident alien of Rome. So his status as a Roman would not be that of a full Roman citizen.
 

fallingblood

Agnostic Theist
Was the point of that a proof that the bible is just a collection of made up stories, or that the Pauline letters are simply forgeries that didn't 100% correspond with the scriptures or both...

Maybe read the OP or even the title of the thread and you wouldn't have to ask such a foolish question.
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
They had different classes of citizenship. Some had more rights and privileges than others. I think he was what we would call a legal resident or resident alien of Rome. So his status as a Roman would not be that of a full Roman citizen.
Cynthia, do have evidence for any of this?
 

fallingblood

Agnostic Theist
They had different classes of citizenship. Some had more rights and privileges than others. I think he was what we would call a legal resident or resident alien of Rome. So his status as a Roman would not be that of a full Roman citizen.

But again, that isn't really supported by the sources.
 

CynthiaCypher

Well-Known Member
Cives Romani
The Cives Romani were full Roman citizens, who enjoyed full legal protection under Roman law. Cives Romani were sub-divided into two classes:
The non optimo jure who held the rights of jus commercii and jus connubii (rights of property and marriage), and
The optimo jure, who also held these rights as well as the additional rights of jus suffragiorum and jus honorum (the rights to vote and to hold office).

Latini

The Latini were a class of citizens who held the Latin Rights (jus Latii), or the rights of jus commercii and ius migrationis, but not the jus connubii. The term Latini originally referred to the Latins, citizens of the Latin League who came under Roman control at the close of the Latin War, but eventually became a legal description rather than a nationalistic or ethnic one. Freedmen slaves, those of the Cives Romani convicted of crimes, or citizens settling Latin colonies could be given this status under the law.

Socii

Socii or Foederati were citizens of states which had treaty obligations with Rome, typically agreements under which certain legal rights of the state's citizens under Roman law were exchanged for agreed upon levels of military service, i.e. the Roman magistrates had the right to levy soldiers for the Roman legions from those states. However, Foederati states that had at one time been conquered by Rome were exempt from payment of tribute to Rome due to their treaty status.
Growing dissatisfaction with the rights afforded to the Socii, and with the growing manpower demands of the legions (due to the protracted Jugurthine War and the Cimbrian War) led eventually to the Social War of 91–88 BC in which the Italian allies revolted against Rome.
The passing of the Lex Julia (more specifically the Lex Iulia de Civitate Latinis Danda) in 90 BC granted the rights of the cives romani to all latini and socii states that had not participated in the Social War, or who were willing to cease hostilities immediately. This was eventually extended to all of the Italian Socii states following the conclusion of the war (with the exception of Gallia Cisalpina), effectively eliminating socii and latini as legal and citizenship definitions.

Provinciales
Provinciales were those persons who fell under Roman influence, or control, but who lacked even the rights of the Foederati, essentially having only the rights of the jus gentium.

Roman citizenship - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 

CynthiaCypher

Well-Known Member
Taurus was a Roman town, often they were granted minimal citizenship in toto, so he could have been a socii or a provinciale but not a full Roman citizen.
 

fallingblood

Agnostic Theist
Taurus was a Roman town, often they were granted minimal citizenship in toto, so he could have been a socii or a provinciale but not a full Roman citizen.

You would have to show this applied to Paul.

More so, my argument still stands anyway as all Roman citizens were not to be beaten.
 
Last edited:

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
You would have to show this applied to Paul.
I would think that given a conflict between Paul and Luke one would (all else being equal) tend to accept Paul. But here we find ourself presented with a claim in Acts about which Paul is silent. It's not clear to me why she should bare the burden of proof.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
The idea that Paul is a Roman citizen comes exclusively from Acts.

false and only ignorance can be blamed for such a poor statement


Paul himself never makes a single reference to that status and admits,

False again


check Romans and see what I told you in the other thread you tried to derail.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
You would have to show this applied to Paul.

More so, my argument still stands anyway as all Roman citizens were not to be beaten.

its upon you to show this to be true.

maybe he didnt start talking fast enough and got his whoopin, or wasnt fiction

as paul created alot of fiction with his mythical jesus, that came from no other place then his own imagination and what oral traditions he chose to listen to
 
Last edited:

outhouse

Atheistically
Stop with the ignorance, your above it.

Robert Eisenman: "Paul as Herodian"

But where Paul is concerned, one can go even further. Paul speaks in an unguarded moment in Rom 16:11 of his "kinsman Herodion." Though the name could refer to any person by this name anywhere, still names like Herod and its derivatives (n.b. the parallel with the name of Caesar's son "Caesarion") are not common. Nor is there any indication that the passage is an interpolation. If it were indicative of actual familial relationships with Herodians, which in my view it is, then by itself it explains the hint of Herodian membership and/or activity in the early Christian community in Antioch. It also very easily explains the matter of Paul's Roman citizenship, which is such an important element in these escapes. In turn, it helps explain why Paul is always so convinced of his own Jewishness, while others seem to have misgivings concerning it, and it throws much light on the peculiar manner in which he chooses to exercise this Judaism. Paul's claim to being of the tribe of Benjamin may relate to a general genre of such claims in the Diaspora, but it also illustrates the superficial ease with which such claims could be passed off on credulous and relatively unschooled audiences. It is more likely that Paul derives the claim to Benjaminite birth not from any actual genealogical link, but from the simple fact of his Hebrew namesake "Saul" being from the tribe of Benjamin.
 

fallingblood

Agnostic Theist
I would think that given a conflict between Paul and Luke one would (all else being equal) tend to accept Paul. But here we find ourself presented with a claim in Acts about which Paul is silent. It's not clear to me why she should bare the burden of proof.

The general consensus on Acts has been that Acts can only be confidently used if Paul supports it. Otherwise, it is just speculation. It is very much like Luke's approach to Jesus. If only Luke reports it, then there is doubt.

It is unlikely that Paul would just say he wasn't a Roman. There was no need for that as he describes himself as a Jew. That is his declared identity. Paul, even when talking about himself and heritage, never mentions being a Roman citizen. It is always that he is a Jew born of Jews.

Now, Paul does have opportunity to label himself a Roman citizen if he was one. It would give him additional authority. Few Jews were Roman citizens at that time. To see one reject that citizenship to follow this Jesus movement would have been a great addition. It would also have been a nice addition when Paul talked about being beaten. It would have added to the story to see a Roman citizen giving up his rights and submitting to a beating based on his beliefs. Paul had definite chances to mention being a Roman citizen (and it would have added to his story and message) if he was. But he never does. That really suggests that he wasn't and does pose a different picture then in Acts.

In Acts, Paul does mention bein a Roman citizen in conjunction with being beaten. He makes a big deal out of it. And it definitely adds to the story. So there is a contradiction there and we should assume Paul is more accurate.

More so though, Acts has a logical reason for making Paul a Roman. One it adds to the story. It is inspiring that someone would give up so much just to follow this movement. It also gives a reason for Paul to go to Rome. It does what Acts states in the beginning. It makes the story not just a central story but universal. It also helps move the church to Rome (it makes it one of the centers). And, as Acts is so apt to do, it builds Paul up even more. It gives him additional importance, while also making the movement open to a larger audience.

On the other hand, Paul really has no reason to remove it from the story. With all that, the burden of proof lies on those who would claim Acts is correct.
 
A

angellous_evangellous

Guest
Taurus was a Roman town, often they were granted minimal citizenship in toto, so he could have been a socii or a provinciale but not a full Roman citizen.

I like this. Do you have a source for it?
 
Top