Paul was not a Roman Citizen.

[outhouse]

I've been mulling it over, and I think I better evacuate this argument with the utmost urgency. It isn't that I have been won over to your point of view; it is my own utter impotence to construct an argument that could win you guys over to my side.

But, my side is chaotic mush. I know what Paul taught, because I can read it with my own eyes, but who knows what Jesus actually taught? Therefore, who knows how his original message has been distorted and perverted by people like Paul or the Gospel-authors? I can't even pretend fluency with these questions, and so I deal from a position of weakness. You guys claim knowledge of historical scholarship, and therefore are intoxicated by the sense of your own certainty. I am offended by this smug sense of self-satisfied certainty, but am unable to effectively respond to it, because of my ignorance. I may not know who or what Jesus really was, but you guys definitely know, and you know that you know (smug son of a...)

But all this is sour grapes. I have not contributed in any meaningful way to this argument, I have to admit. I have not made my points effectively, and I dragged us down many blind alleys on a perfect goose chase. Why? Because I was completely outplayed by people more knowledgeable than myself, and because of the weakness of my own arguments.

Thanks for all responses to my own pseudo-arguments, but especially for those that showed patience and respect.

very little is known of jesus teachings to state anything with certainty.


You would have done better just to drop the 200 year old works and stayed on topic. Little of his works were relevant.


for me its obvious paul was roman, and very few scholars think other wise.

a few question it, but questioning is not dismissal, and their case is weak for a jewish paul.


the man traveled, taught and lived like a god fearer who turned himself into a apostle and a jew. many romans were very knowledgeable about judaism and had worshipped in synagogues all their lives, but were not jews. thats why this is tough.

pauls jewishiness has been questioned from the beginning, but his roman citizenship, well not so much.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Thanks for all responses to my own pseudo-arguments, but especially for those that showed patience and respect.

:takeabow:

 

[angellous_evangellous]

for me its obvious paul was roman, and very few scholars think other wise.

a few question it, but questioning is not dismissal, and their case is weak for a jewish paul.

This is not a very good review of the literature.

 

[outhouse]

This is not a very good review of the literature.

true

there just not enough evidence to say hes not a citizen

and enough evidence that he is.

and a lot of factors that could fall between a hellenistic jew and one with citizenship.



a point ive just thought up, the gospels speak of jesus and tax collectors quite a bit. I wonder if the absense in pauls epistles is because he is not paying any of the same taxes levied against jews. jews didnt like being forced to pay taxes, they committed what amounts to suicide fighting roman taxation. yet paul says pay your money

 

[angellous_evangellous]

true

there just not enough evidence to say hes not a citizen

and enough evidence that he is.

and a lot of factors that could fall between a hellenistic jew and one with citizenship.

Yes, we can't say that Paul is a citizen. But it's quite another thing to argue that he's not a Jew.

a point ive just thought up, the gospels speak of jesus and tax collectors quite a bit. I wonder if the absense in pauls epistles is because he is not paying any of the same taxes levied against jews. jews didnt like being forced to pay taxes, they committed what amounts to suicide fighting roman taxation. yet paul says pay your money

Do you mean "Jesus" here?

 

[gnostic]

true

there just not enough evidence to say hes not a citizen

and enough evidence that he is.

and a lot of factors that could fall between a hellenistic jew and one with citizenship.

Whether Paul was a Roman citizen, can be questioned. It is a possibility. But that doesn't mean he wasn't a Jew.

And the only way to conclusive prove that Paul was a Roman citizenship, if he had a citizenship diploma, like what Auxiliary soldiers can obtain after years of military services in Roman army.

Below is an image of such military diploma that bestowed citizenship to a non-Roman person (image from Wikipedia, Roman military diploma):

​

But there are no evidence of such that Paul served as Auxiliary soldier. So Paul must have got his citizenship by other mean.

Citizenship can be bestowed on a whole town, on individuals or groups of people, by provincial magistrates (governors). Though, I think conferring citizenship to whole town may require approval from the Roman Senate (at least in the late Roman Republic days, thus 1st century BCE) or from the Emperor himself. However, these citizenship doesn't give them voting rights (it is not possible or convenient for citizenship living outside of Rome, to travel to Rome to vote).

 

[outhouse]

Whether Paul was a Roman citizen, can be questioned. It is a possibility. But that doesn't mean he wasn't a Jew.

And the only way to conclusive prove that Paul was a Roman citizenship, if he had a citizenship diploma, like what Auxiliary soldiers can obtain after years of military services in Roman army.

Below is an image of such military diploma that bestowed citizenship to a non-Roman person (image from Wikipedia, Roman military diploma):

But there are no evidence of such that Paul served as Auxiliary soldier. So Paul must have got his citizenship by other mean.

Citizenship can be bestowed on a whole town, on individuals or groups of people, by provincial magistrates (governors). Though, I think conferring citizenship to whole town may require approval from the Roman Senate (at least in the late Roman Republic days, thus 1st century BCE) or from the Emperor himself. However, these citizenship doesn't give them voting rights (it is not possible or convenient for citizenship living outside of Rome, to travel to Rome to vote).

cool picture




we discussed earlier in the thread about the different kinds of citizenship and ways paul could have recieved it due to his possible origin from Tarsus

as well as a study done on it.

http://www.hisholychurch.net/pdfiles/law/Roman.pdf


Thanks

 

[outhouse]

Yes, we can't say that Paul is a citizen. But it's quite another thing to argue that he's not a Jew.



Do you mean "Jesus" here?

well most follow that he had citizenship, its a fringe position to state he didnt at this point.

I have never argued he isnt a jew, how jewish he is has been on the table for a long time. We cant state he wasnt a god-fearer which his preaching mimics so much more then any one of the four main sects of judaism in the first century.

Saducee? no way
Pharisee? no way
Zealot? I dont see it
Essene? Nope no waldo there either





Jesus never says pay your money to anyone

Paul states be a good little jew and pay, romans 13

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Jesus never says pay your money to anyone

Paul states be a good little jew and pay, romans 13

You've never heard, "Render unto Caesar?"

Render unto Caesar... - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia...

 

[outhouse]

You've never heard, "Render unto Caesar?"

Render unto Caesar... - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia...

I know it well.

while Luke says only that they were "spies" sent by "teachers of the law and the chief priests".

They anticipated that Jesus would oppose the tax, as their purpose was "to hand him over to the power and authority of the governor"


so jesus didnt fall for their trap.



At his trial before Pontius Pilate, Jesus was accused of promoting resistance to Caesar's tax.

"What do you think, Simon? From whom do kings on the earth collect tolls or tributes? From their own subjects, or from foreigners?" When he said, "From foreigners," Jesus said to him, "In that case, the subjects are exempt." -Matthew 17:25-27


here jesus says his people are exempt and foreigners should pay.