Paul's definition of atonement?

[nash8]

What are some Bible verses where Jesus specifically Deified himself?

 

[sojourner]

What are some Bible verses where Jesus specifically Deified himself?

Why do you feel that there have to be bible verses specifically expressing this?

 

[Pegg]

Why do you feel that there have to be bible verses specifically expressing this?

because the bible is Gods word, not mans.

If God states it through the words of the bible, then its true.

 

[Pegg]

[FONT=&quot]
I know you have the Ebionites, but what makes you think that all of the Jewish Christians denied the Divinity of Christ?

Prove it. Give me primary sources. Give me the writings of the early Christians. Give me writings of the early Church that support your claim.

The New Catholic Encyclopedia states: “The formulation ‘one God in three Persons’ was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century. But it is precisely this formulation that has first claim to the title the Trinitarian dogma. Among the Apostolic Fathers, there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective.”—(1967), Vol. XIV, p. 299.


You wont even find the teaching that Jesus is God in the Nicene Creed . As originally published, the entire creed stated:

“We believe in one God, the Father almighty, maker of all things visible and invisible;

“And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, begotten from the Father, only-begotten, that is, from the substance of the Father, God from God, light from light, true God from true God, begotten not made, of one substance with the Father, through Whom all things came into being, things in heaven and things on earth, Who because of us men and because of our salvation came down and became incarnate, becoming man, suffered and rose again on the third day, ascended to the heavens, and will come to judge the living and the dead;

“And in the Holy Spirit.”3

It doesnt even say that the Father, Son, and holy spirit are three persons in one. It doesnt even say that the three are equal. In fact it shows that Jesus christ is begotten... meaning a creation of God.


So what can you conclude from this?

 

[sojourner]

because the bible is Gods word, not mans.

If God states it through the words of the bible, then its true.

Oh ye of little faith...
and too much bibliolatry.

 

[sojourner]

The New Catholic Encyclopedia states: “The formulation ‘one God in three Persons’ was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century. But it is precisely this formulation that has first claim to the title the Trinitarian dogma. Among the Apostolic Fathers, there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective.”—(1967), Vol. XIV, p. 299.


You wont even find the teaching that Jesus is God in the Nicene Creed . As originally published, the entire creed stated:

“We believe in one God, the Father almighty, maker of all things visible and invisible;

“And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, begotten from the Father, only-begotten, that is, from the substance of the Father, God from God, light from light, true God from true God, begotten not made, of one substance with the Father, through Whom all things came into being, things in heaven and things on earth, Who because of us men and because of our salvation came down and became incarnate, becoming man, suffered and rose again on the third day, ascended to the heavens, and will come to judge the living and the dead;

“And in the Holy Spirit.”3

It doesnt even say that the Father, Son, and holy spirit are three persons in one. It doesnt even say that the three are equal. In fact it shows that Jesus christ is begotten... meaning a creation of God.


So what can you conclude from this?

That you understand neither the Creed nor the doctrine well enough to refute either.

 

[Pegg]

Oh ye of little faith...
and too much bibliolatry.

I trust the bible more then i trust the writings of anyone else

 

[idav]

The New Catholic Encyclopedia states: “The formulation ‘one God in three Persons’ was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century. But it is precisely this formulation that has first claim to the title the Trinitarian dogma. Among the Apostolic Fathers, there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective.”—(1967), Vol. XIV, p. 299.


You wont even find the teaching that Jesus is God in the Nicene Creed . As originally published, the entire creed stated:

“We believe in one God, the Father almighty, maker of all things visible and invisible;

“And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, begotten from the Father, only-begotten, that is, from the substance of the Father, God from God, light from light, true God from true God, begotten not made, of one substance with the Father, through Whom all things came into being, things in heaven and things on earth, Who because of us men and because of our salvation came down and became incarnate, becoming man, suffered and rose again on the third day, ascended to the heavens, and will come to judge the living and the dead;

“And in the Holy Spirit.”3

It doesnt even say that the Father, Son, and holy spirit are three persons in one. It doesnt even say that the three are equal. In fact it shows that Jesus christ is begotten... meaning a creation of God.


So what can you conclude from this?

That God procreated Jesus instead of plain ole created. Either way a son is not his father, that sounds creepy.

 

[Pegg]

That God procreated Jesus instead of plain ole created. Either way a son is not his father, that sounds creepy.

you understand it better then the christians, well done


Its just common sense really

(ps, begotten is create)

 

[Shiranui117]

I trust the bible more then i trust the writings of anyone else

NEWSFLASH: The Bible is the words of man inspired by the Holy Spirit. It is not even close to being dictated by God, it did not fall out of the sky complete and whole, and it reflects the authors' own cultural, historical and theological backgrounds.

Sola Scriptura did not exist in early Christianity. The Bible is only one part of a larger Apostolic Tradition. You cannot hope to properly understand the Bible if you remove it from this Tradition.

 

[Shiranui117]

The New Catholic Encyclopedia states: “The formulation ‘one God in three Persons’ was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century. But it is precisely this formulation that has first claim to the title the Trinitarian dogma. Among the Apostolic Fathers, there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective.”—(1967), Vol. XIV, p. 299.

Here's your quote, de-butchered and put back in context:

From what has been seen thus far, the impression could arise that the Trinitarian dogma is in the last analysis a late 4th-century invention. In a sense, this is true; but it implies an extremely strict interpretation of the key words Trinitarian and dogma. Triadic Consciousness in the Primitive Revelation. The formulation "one God in three Persons" was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century. But it is precisely this formulation that has first claim to the title the Trinitarian dogma. Among the Apostolic Fathers, there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective; among the 2d-century Apologists, little more than a focusing of the problem as that of plurality within the unique Godhead. ... From the vocabulary and grammar of the Greek original, the intention of the hagiographer to communicate singleness of essence in three distinct Persons was easily derived. ... If it is clear on one side that the dogma of the Trinity in the stricter sense of the word was a late arrival, product of 3 centuries' reflection and debate, it is just as clear on the opposite side that confession of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit-and hence an elemental Trinitarianism-went back to the period of Christian origins.

You wont even find the teaching that Jesus is God in the Nicene Creed . As originally published, the entire creed stated:

LOL what? Try actually reading the Creed!

“We believe in one God, the Father almighty, maker of all things visible and invisible;

“And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, begotten from the Father, only-begotten, that is, from the substance of the Father, God from God, light from light, true God from true God, begotten not made, of one substance with the Father, through Whom all things came into being, things in heaven and things on earth, Who because of us men and because of our salvation came down and became incarnate, becoming man, suffered and rose again on the third day, ascended to the heavens, and will come to judge the living and the dead;

See what I made reeeaaaallllllllllly big for you? That's where Jesus is called God in the Nicene Creed.

It doesnt even say that the Father, Son, and holy spirit are three persons in one. It doesnt even say that the three are equal.

Because the Holy Spirit had not yet been questioned. The controversy started with Jesus. It was only later that the Arians began turning their efforts toward denying the Divine Personhood of the Holy Spirit.

In fact it shows that Jesus christ is begotten... meaning a creation of God.

No it doesn't. Read the Creed again. Then re-read it. Then read it again some more. Read it until it all starts to sink in.

So what can you conclude from this?

That you have a loooooot of learning to do on this subject yet. It's alright, there are plenty of primary sources out there that you can use to learn about the history, teachings, beliefs and practices of the early Church.

 

[nash8]

Why do you feel that there have to be bible verses specifically expressing this?

I don't really, I was just wondering if there was. My Bible knowledge has gotten a little bit rusty in my older years. I seem to remember there are verses were Jesus denies being God.

And I also find it relevant to whether early Christian church deified him or not. If Jesus claimed himself God, then it would make sense that the early church would have deified him. If he didn't, or denied that he was God, then I don't think it as plausible that they would have deified him, as many members would have known him on a personal level and would have known that he did not want to be treated/remembered as a God.

Does Peter Deify Jesus in any writings? They were besties so it would seem that he would know best right?

 

[nash8]

And from my point of view, that quote from the Nicean Creed, it seems that they said two opposing things, maybe unintentionally.

Arguments for Jesus' Divinity:
1. God from God
2. From True God to True God

Arguments against Jesus' Divinity:
1. Lord Jesus Christ,The Son of God, begotten from the Father.

As someone stated earlier, a father by definition is not the same as a son. Therefore Christianity just became polythiestic, or someone messed up a long time ago. I could logically argue either side of the argument from that quote.

 

[Shiranui117]

And from my point of view, that quote from the Nicean Creed, it seems that they said two opposing things, maybe unintentionally.

Arguments for Jesus' Divinity:
1. God from God
2. From True God to True God

Arguments against Jesus' Divinity:
1. Lord Jesus Christ,The Son of God, begotten from the Father.

As someone stated earlier, a father by definition is not the same as a son. Therefore Christianity just became polythiestic, or someone messed up a long time ago. I could logically argue either side of the argument from that quote.

Jesus being begotten of the Father is not an argument against His Divinity.

Also, you forgot to include in the argument for His Divinity that He is consubstantial with the Father.

 

[nash8]

But it says he is the son of God. By definition, a son is different from the father correct? So it says that he is different from God, and the same as God at the same time right?

 

[Pegg]

Sola Scriptura did not exist in early Christianity. The Bible is only one part of a larger Apostolic Tradition. You cannot hope to properly understand the Bible if you remove it from this Tradition.

Jesus was continuously making reference to the scriptures... "it is written"..."have you not read" are expressions found throughout the gospel accounts

Jesus based his teaching on the scriptures and so should we.

 

[Pegg]

And from my point of view, that quote from the Nicean Creed, it seems that they said two opposing things, maybe unintentionally.

Arguments for Jesus' Divinity:
1. God from God
2. From True God to True God

Arguments against Jesus' Divinity:
1. Lord Jesus Christ,The Son of God, begotten from the Father.

As someone stated earlier, a father by definition is not the same as a son. Therefore Christianity just became polythiestic, or someone messed up a long time ago. I could logically argue either side of the argument from that quote.

exactly, the creed states one thing (christ a begotten son) but then the complete opposite in the same sentence...


Anyone with an inquiring mind can see the tall tale being spun in this...not to mention the mental gymnastics required to make any sense of it

 

[Shiranui117]

Jesus was continuously making reference to the scriptures... "it is written"..."have you not read" are expressions found throughout the gospel accounts

Jesus based his teaching on the scriptures and so should we.

Yes, He based His teachings on the Scriptures--but never did He or the Apostles say to use the Scriptures alone. In fact, you will find Paul telling the Thessalonians to hold to the traditions they were taught, whether by word or by epistle.

 

[sojourner]

That God procreated Jesus instead of plain ole created. Either way a son is not his father, that sounds creepy.

Well... the doctrine of the Trinity does say that the Son is not the Father -- that they are separate Persons who happen to share the same substance of Being. Nothing "creepy" about that...

 

[sojourner]

I don't really, I was just wondering if there was. My Bible knowledge has gotten a little bit rusty in my older years. I seem to remember there are verses were Jesus denies being God.

And I also find it relevant to whether early Christian church deified him or not. If Jesus claimed himself God, then it would make sense that the early church would have deified him. If he didn't, or denied that he was God, then I don't think it as plausible that they would have deified him, as many members would have known him on a personal level and would have known that he did not want to be treated/remembered as a God.

Does Peter Deify Jesus in any writings? They were besties so it would seem that he would know best right?

First of all, if you want to seek out what the "early church" thought, you have to be willing to go to extra-bibical sources, since the canon wasn't even set until about the year 450. There simply was not the demarcation between "bible" and "not-bible" that we superimpose on apostolic teaching. What happened at Nicea is a good example of extra-biblical resource. The fathers brought to the table at least some rudimentary understanding of the triune nature of God. In fact, the Didache, certainly written within the time frame of at least the latest Pastorals in the NT, describes the baptismal formula as triune -- Father, Son, Holy Spirit.

Second, Peter didn't write any biblical text. So we don't really know what Peter thought.